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Author Topic: Is the current training sufficient?  (Read 7508 times)

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Offline wombles

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Is the current training sufficient?
« on: May 09, 2012, 08:29:46 AM »
Spoke to a newly registered guy yesterday and he has never done a subfloor!! He can carry on like this till he is certified and still never have done it. I've also met registered guys who've never installed a HWC. Are there no standards that HAVE to be adhered to? I think both of these jobs are very basic and necessary. What do you think?

Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/polytechs-and-unitecs/82/is-the-current-training-sufficient/1102/

Offline o2b007

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 09:52:33 AM »
I would be very worried if he hadnt done it in training at least Im positive there is a unit stard that covers both sections. I remember haveing to head out the back of the polytech to preslab assesment back in the day.
I think alot of the problem is you get theses guys who are doing there apprenticeships who have only ever worked on a big commercial site or have only ever done maintenance which although they do there paperwork and pass there exams they have absolutly no practical knowledge of half the trade.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 11:10:20 AM »
The current training is not sufficient - I think we are seeing this daily.  There needs to be more training done at the Polytechnics and I say this for exactly the reason outlined above.  More and more firms are specialising - domestic maintenance, commercial jobs etc and some apprentices may do their whole apprenticeship on one commercial job and have never done a day's maintenance in their life.  The techs are like the "catch all" and it is hoped that the apprentice will have at least covered over everything during his four years.  He/she is by no means an expert at anything at the end of their apprenticeship - in fact this is when the real learning commences.  I would be shocked, surprised and very worried if a plumbing apprentice hadn't put in a HWC during their four years though.  I think we will see the PGDB start to ask questions around competency if there is no element of practical experience.  The one glaring area will be gasfitting - think how many apprentices complete plumbing and gasfitting apprenticeships, go on to pass their registration in gas and have done very minimal (and in some cases none) gasfitting.  How scary is this?  And if I was a betting person then i would say this is the area where the PGDB will flex their muscle around competency at registration time first.
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline dragon333

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2012, 07:20:48 AM »
Yeah I think the training is some what adequate, however in light of the issues with the board etc, apprentice's should be willing and take part in an exchange where they are required to do set hours on preslab's, gasfitting, commercial work and so on in order to fully obtain their licenses come rego time. I'm sure a few companys would be willing to do this exchange about the place, business is about people guys, we need to help the young fulla's out, its not rocket science and would prevent the majority of these issues.

Offline o2b007

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 07:53:44 AM »
Funny  you say that dragon several years ago when I was running a commercial plumbing company we did an exchange with a friend who had a residential and maintenance company just to keep the apprenitices well rounded and it actually worked out really well.

Offline Thunderhead

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 05:54:15 PM »
im so glad now that i trained under a new housing/reno craftsman cus i have seen what happens to some who work for the larger companies who spend most of there days drilling in munsen rings and doing maintance when we came to the assement at tech they didnt have a clue about running stack work...the traning at tech on stack work is dismal at the best just breased over no real traning given so no real understanding gained by the paying students!...learning unit standards by paperwork is not and should never be a substitute for hands on traning....you should do your paper work at home and go to tech and have the tutors help to reinforce what you have learnt on paper by guiding you though a build phase not just leave you to your own devices and then come back and do an assement of your work and poke holes in it!. This is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach to teaching...you know there is an actual reason why there given the title TUTOR and not ACESSOR!

Offline dragon333

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 06:10:27 PM »
Totally agree with you on that score mate. How bout the apprentice's all start off at a base, and monthly-2 monthly everyone changes around...until they finish their 2nd year before settling. I think it would work really well, no kids left wanting for knowledge then. Its all very straight forward, just experience required.

Offline roberto

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 08:58:05 PM »
I agree, I know a guy in wellington who was only ever travelled with his boss everday in his van, he became licenced and had to ring his boss coz he didnt know what to do when the vent on a hwc was overflowing, he found out after a while he just had to replace the washer on the prv valve, but his boss was a dick though, not enough training by the boss in this case,

As far as polytec goes, when I was there,  in the workshop it was one tutor to 12-13 young guys,

so one guy would hook up a hwc for the tutor, then the tutor would look at it from a distance and say "ok, very good, now take it apart", and he would then instruct the next guy to do the same, then the tutor would walk away to see another guy who needed help, while the guy who just finished the cylinder would just walk away to do another task and the second guy would slightly change the pipework so that the tutor wouldnt notice, and call the tutor over and get it signed off,

and no this wasnt me!!!!

so not only were the young guys cheating slightly the tutor didnt even notice!!.

Offline Jayp

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 05:13:50 PM »
I personally think that in order to future proof our industry the mentality has to change as well as the training. What I mean by this is that if you look back 30 years ago, im sure apprenticeships wouldve been much harder, thus the standard or bar is set higher. It would've been completely different, 1st stage, second stage qualifying etc. This was way more thorough, I feel, and again alot harder to get through as you were assessed practically as you went as well having to sit a stage exam at each level of your apprenticeship you were at. You couldn't just bluff you way through.  I also think there's a large problem with employees knowing exactly the risks which are involved taking on an apprentice and what it actually entails. An apprentice should be taken on as an investment to your company, which if you run a business then I would assume that is a priority. If the employer is not training the apprentice correctly - which takes time- then the apprentice will not be able to prove their competences at poly-tech. Its a snow ball affect because the employer is stressed that the apprentice "doesnt know" how to complete the job correctly. Have they been taught at all? The learning must line up with the training or your out of balance. Obviously the apprentice needs all the prerequisites, and to be able to set aside the outside hours to assist learning / knowledge.
So my answer is no, I dont think the training is sufficient.


Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 07:13:57 PM »
I have taken part in a large number of discussions recently on apprenticeships - how could they be improved, what is missing, what is good, what is not.  One of the things that has become apparent is that over the years - plumbing firms have changed and become a bit more specialised.  Sure your rural or small town plumber probably is a jack of all trades - and his apprentice will possibly be more broadly trained than his counterpart in a large firm.  However the large firm apprentice may understand other things better.  Some firms specialise in gasfitting, others in maintenance.  This is the problem - how do you become all things to all men?  The key has to be the polytech who should provide broad brush stroke teaching so that all subjects are covered (but we have to understand this will not be in depth).  You will continue to learn through your plumbing career and add to your knowledge - you do not need to know everything at registration -but you probably do need to know where to look to find out what you don't know.  The idea fo moving back to 1st qual, 2nd qual and 3rd qual is appealing to tradesmen who train and also apprentices - it means you stop and repeat what you don't know before progressing on, rather than finishing a four year apprenticeship and failing your registration exam.  What ever is decided, it must be agreed on by the PGDB otherwise National Certificate will never = registration - and this is what we are aiming for so that we can get rid of the exams at the completion of your National Certificate, and perhaps have staged exams throughout.  I agree the training as it stands is not sufficient - and this includes the on job and off job training - there needs to be more checks and balances, and more effort put in by the ITO, the employer and the apprentice. 

Offline aboutgas

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 09:43:48 PM »
there needs to be more checks and balances, and more effort put in by the ITO, the employer and the apprentice. 

[/quote]

Can you please explain why we need a middle man like the ITO. As  I see it all they are is a bunch of leaches sucking more money out of apprentices and not providing anywhere near the service they claim to. A good hard look at the Aussie system needs to take place> Under that system the training agreement is between the employer the training provider and the apprentice = cheaper cost and better training.

Just my thoughts on the matter what does everyone else think?
Unless the moral improves the floggings will continue

Offline integrated

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 10:10:23 PM »
there needs to be more checks and balances, and more effort put in by the ITO, the employer and the apprentice. 


Can you please explain why we need a middle man like the ITO. As  I see it all they are is a bunch of leaches sucking more money out of apprentices and not providing anywhere near the service they claim to. A good hard look at the Aussie system needs to take place> Under that system the training agreement is between the employer the training provider and the apprentice = cheaper cost and better training.

Just my thoughts on the matter what does everyone else think?
[/quote]






I agree - the whole bloody industry needs to take a leaf or three out of their book

we're effectively the 7th state anyway using same codes etc so why not just adopt same industry standards? at ALL levels?

the insistent re-inventing of the wheel in this country is rediculous...

Offline peasea

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Re: Is the current training sufficient?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 08:52:31 PM »
Might need to recall Phil Routhan , he wanted to introduce the Aussie system of training ,  ::) ::)


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