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Author Topic: Plumber's Gasfitter's and Drainlayer's Board "do as i say ,not as i do"  (Read 4096 times)

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Offline Badger

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Please find below an email i have sent to every one i think who is relevent, please pass it on to who ever you think it is relevent, it concerns my old boss, who was given full craftsman status "after holding a limited licence for several years and doing one oral exam", which was given by the Board's "impartial" investigator, the same guy has now carried out an audit of all my work . Both my boss, the investigator and other members of the Board, were all part of the same industry group, which my old boss "resigned" from the following month after the explosion at a chip shop, I have tried to bring to the Boards attention many times the fact that something was wrong with certs in my name from 2003, the explosion being in April 2009, there is a lot to this and you may see it on "Close Up", when the terrible situation in Christchurch has been covered. (My heart felt wishes to those affected, if any one needs me to come down to help out let me know.)

This is our trade, livelyhood and ability to provide for our families that we are talking about, come on people get behind it and make a stance, I can speak from experience you may be singled out and rail roaded, don't wait until it happens,    pre-empt it and make a difference.


Here's the email....


To Whom It May Concern:
                                                     Firstly let me apologize to those involved in the catastrophe in Christchurch for my bringing my situation to light at this time, my problems pale in comparison and I offer my most heart felt condolences, but if things don’t change for my family soon I am going to be bankrupt and loose my ability to provide for my children and wife.

                                                      I have recently attended an “impartiality” hearing on the Board and its investigator, one of the things I wanted to know was how an industry Board could be comfortable consisting mostly of industry groups and interest groups. I ask you to consider my situation in light of Item 5.36 below which is extracted from a publication, see attached publication on tribunals produced by the NZ Law Commission, this is a very relevant document and I ask you to read the attached document above, an excerpt from this document states-

 

5.36 A difficulty arises here in that occupational regulatory and disciplinary bodies are often funded by the relevant industry, which may adversely affect perceptions of
their independence. However, this funding is necessary. We suggest that it may be
acceptable for these bodies to be funded through mechanisms such as licensing fees
and industry levies provided that they are independent from industry associations
and other purely industry groups, and that other mechanisms are in place to
safeguard their independence.

 
I was told to allow for three days by Mark Whitehead, the person leading the tribunal. I was in the chamber for only two hours, which I believe the Board would have been well aware of as they were setting the  itinerary for the hearing, this left me stuck in Wellington for the three days, as I had allowed as instructed and could not get on any earlier flights to return home, this was all at my own expense, and would have been totally impossible if it wasn’t for kind hearted friends. I counted 3 members of the Board out of 4 that resided over this matter were actually involved in my complaint, so that the majority presiding board members  (3 out of 4), were actually part of the complaint and were to pass judgment on that complaint, I found this confusing and distressing.

 
Mark Whitehead’s presence upset me the most because he was contravening the code of ethics as written in the Master Plumber’s rules of “not criticizing another members work”, I understand this is not part of the investigation, but as I hold the Master Plumber’s organization in great esteem and I am a current member and past president, I found it unsettling.

 
I was instructed that there would be no further “oral” evidence, which as my representative and I understood was that we were not allowed to ask any further questions and only allowed to read out our submission, which in reality could have been done by post and in effect shut down the “impartiality” hearing from cross examination.

 
The Acting Registrar Kern Uren didn’t attend this hearing and sent a solicitor in his place; the only correspondence I had received from him was two letters concerning certificates that had been in the Board’s possession for at least two years, which were according to the letters to be amended within 10 days of the writing of the letter, the letter being signed on the 17th of Feb, and only received by me on the 21st of Feb, which was the day I was leaving for a 3 day hearing in Wellington. I don’t expect too much from this man, who has previously phoned me on my mobile, even though we were corresponding by email, and “warned” me in a way that I found discomforting and upsetting. He also issued letters right across the top of the south saying that I was involved in issuing dodgy certs in the Bay of Plenty, a place I have never even visited. But apparently the “impartial” board at the “impartial” hearing finds no problem in this as it is “not part of the investigation”, but admits the letter could have been “tailored better”.

 
My Business is in ruins for the type of incident that I believe I was trying to warn against, but the Board didn’t act on my information, only offering to sell me photocopies of certs at $25.00 per cert, firstly telling me there were over 1000, then 100, I could not afford $2000.00 at the time and told them so on the phone.

 
The most unsettling part of this whole experience was, and only letting me know after an application undertaken by my representative under the “privacy act”,  that the offending hose in the explosion had “had its protective sheath cut away, some time prior to the explosion, which was evidenced by dirt and grease on the flexible pipe beneath”, this is from a statement by the forensic scientist who attended the explosion and is in his report signed 3 weeks after the explosion, my life has been made a living hell since, for two years and my reputation ruined.

 
I am begging you all, to whom I have sent this to email to, to act before we have another incident, and preferably before my family and I are out on the street.

 

I welcome your comments………………



Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/rant-or-rave/5/plumbers-gasfitters-and-drainlayers-board-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/589/
You can't choose who you are.....but you are the sum of your choices.......

Offline Badger

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Re: Plumber's Gasfitter's and Drainlayer's Board "do as i say ,not as i do"
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 12:19:31 PM »
A reply from the Board regarding signatures!!!!!!!!!

It reads bottom to top as it is an email



Hi Max,

 

                   I am confused,  I thought that a signature is what makes a letter legal and identifies to the reader that the signatory is not only aware that the letter has been carried out in their name but that it becomes a legal document, in the same vein as a gas certificate for example.

 

                  So, I find it quite ironic and of great concern that the Acting Registrar, Kern Uren,  has procedures that in effect give the impression that a letter is signed on his behalf, with the signatory unaware of its existence, but then can prosecute a tradesman for signing certificates, which have been altered after he had signed them, and refusing to acknowledge my bringing it up or even investigate that possibility. I believe it is just a bit hypocritical too.

 

                 In my case I have offered 3 out of a batch of 89 certs, that show beyond doubt that there is writing on the pink master copy but absent from the blue carbon copy, the added writing is defiantly not in my hand along with the rest of the writing on these certs, but the Acting Registrar, Kern Uren (who phoned me and “warned” me in a manner that I found quite un nerving and also I find the coincidence too much concerning the letters mentioned below, he also apparently gave false evidence at the regulation review), said I was being vexatious. If his meaning that he supplied from his dictionary on the meaning of vexatious is true, then my trying to bring to the Board’s attention this evidence, was to cause trouble and not that I was offering valid evidence to get a fair hearing.  The “impartial” investigator also has decided to ignore this. I have personally told both Kern Uren and Tony Hammond about these certs. This “impartial” investigator actually “had a large input” in to bringing the self certification system in to being, which, in appointing him as an “impartial” investigator, is a bit like asking a father what faults he can find in his offspring. The investigator also withheld information, which was only grudgingly granted when applied for under the privacy act, that the offending hose in this incident, had had it’s “outer sheath cut away some time previously, as evidenced by the dirt and grease present on the flexible pipe below” this can be found in the forensic scientist report, signed 3 weeks after the explosion. In my experience this outer sheath is a major part of the integrity and soundness of these particular cooker hoses, this evidence didn’t even make it in to his report to the Board.

 

                  After the farce of my last hearing into the Board’s impartiality, presided over by at least 3 members about whom the complaint was actually about (this would give them a majority),  a hearing where I could not cross examine anyone. Bearing in mind it was done in light of a paper written by the NZ Law Commission January 2008, Wellington, New Zealand which states-

 

 

5.36 A difficulty arises here in that occupational regulatory and disciplinary bodies are

often funded by the relevant industry, which may adversely affect perceptions of

their independence. However, this funding is necessary. We suggest that it may be

acceptable for these bodies to be funded through mechanisms such as licensing fees

and industry levies provided that they are independent from industry associations

and other purely industry groups, and that other mechanisms are in place to

safeguard their independence.

 

Then you will have to forgive me for not holding much faith in getting a fair go at the next hearing, which will be presided over by the same people I presume. Since sending out a blanket email yesterday I have received several emails from people who have been dealt to by the Board, and frankly feel as though they have been shafted, lied to and basically set up.

 

Please Max turn off the path set by your predecessors; since I have been involved in this situation I have met many, many people who say the same thing about the procedures and attitude of the Board, and its honesty and integrity. Actually I haven’t met one person who has had anything positive to say (unless you count Board Members). I believe in the principle of the Board and what it stands for, just not how certain people represent it. As it is now it is killing our industry and quality tradesman are leaving in droves.

 

Thank you Max, please don’t take any of this personally, but I am at my wits end and just trying to get someone with a fair and open mind to genuinely look at what I am saying, this is something that I don’t believe will happen if the people who I have encountered so far continue to over see and carry out their duties. There is a lot more that I can show you and would be happy to do so.

 

 I apologize in advance for copying in the media, MPs and Federation members but in my horrendous experience the people I have dealt with so far tend to do the right thing in a public forum, I am not tarring you with the same brush, but my faith in human nature is at an all time low, I was a very trusting person before and this is what got me into this position. I am about to loose everything, for something I tried to warn about as far back as 2003 and by letter in June 06 from my local MP, my family come first and foremost in my priorities and if I must chance putting a few noses out of joint in the process of protecting/providing for them then I will do everything I possibly can.

 

I truly hope you can accept this email in the intention that it is written. It is no reflection on yourself, but just a desperate man trying to look after his family and protect the public, I hope you are not offended.   

 

Best Regards

Paul Gee

Managing Director

Gas, Solar & Plumbing Services Ltd

PO Box 249, Takaka 7142 NZ

03 525 9889 / 0274 33 33 50

 

From: Max Pedersen [mailto:Max@pgdb.co.nz]
Sent: 25 February 2011 5:34 p.m.
To: Wal Gordon
Subject: RE: Gas Certificate Response

 

Hi Paul

Thanks for your email. I have now carried out enquiries into the matters that you have raised. 

 

The letters in question that were sent to you are as a result of the Board carrying out assessments of gas compliance certificates that were not transferred across from the hard copy database to the new electronic database due to problems validating addresses or other material details missing.  This work is being undertaken by our Certification Administrator using a standard letter that uses the Deputy Registrar’s electronic signature.  Mr U’ren would not personally have known that the letter was being sent to you and it is unrelated to the other matters before the Board.

 

Accordingly, I am happy for you to make the necessary changes to the gas compliance certificates within the next 14 days from now. Once these have been received  the Certification Administrator will enter these onto the electronic database.

Regards

 

Max Pedersen

Chief Executive

Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board

p: 04 494 2970   f: 04 494 2975   w: www.pgdb.co.nz




 

PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL

 

This email contains CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION, which may also be LEGALLY PRIVILEGED and which is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this email is not the intended recipient, or employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby on notice that you are in possession of confidential and privileged information.  Any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone (collect) and return the original email to the sender at the above email address.

 

 

 

 

 

From: Wal Gordon [mailto:wal.gordon@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 24 February 2011 1:54 p.m.
To: Max Pedersen
Cc: Kern Uren
Subject: Gas Certificate Response

 

Dear Mr Pederson

 

This is Paul Gee from Wal Gordon’s email address.

 

As you are no doubt aware I am currently in Wellington attending a Board Hearing and have been since Monday night.

 

Prior to leaving, actually on the way to the airport, I cleared the PO Box and found an envelope containing two letters dated 17 February 2011 giving me ten days to respond to a request by the Board’s Acting Registrar, Kern U’ren. 

 

The Acting Registrar would have been fully aware I was going to be in Wellington for most of this week.  I find it quite disturbing he is attempting to add pressure to me in what is already a stressful situation.  Why would he send out letters with a deadline of tens days from the date of the letter when I would not have a show of meeting that requirement due to being involved in a Board Hearing.  Both of theses certificates are at least two years old what was the rush.

 

I will respond to the letters at my earliest convenience as I have been stuck in Wellington for what was to be a three day hearing which was in fact less than two hours.

 

I apologise for the delay and will give it my attention on my return to Nelson

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Paul Gee


Offline aboutgas

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Re: Plumber's Gasfitter's and Drainlayer's Board "do as i say ,not as i do"
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 10:05:14 PM »
Hi Badger

Best of luck to you and i hope the out come is in your favour  :) :)

I to know what you are going through as i have take 5 years to get a fair run out of the board and that was only over class of licence having come from Aussie to here (bad mistake will hopefully rectify soon).
Unless the moral improves the floggings will continue

Offline Badger

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Cheers ;)

Offline woody

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Wow.  :o

Will definately be looking out for that episode!

All the best mate

Offline Thunderhead

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I hope you stick it to the bas**rds badger...they had a go at my old man once for doing 9kg bottle work when it was still legal for him to do so...the owner of the property EVEN admitted to altering the system himself...yet they still tried to have him...bunch of arses i reckon...give em heaps mate!.

Offline Badger

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To All My Fellow Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers,

I notice this post is getting a lot of reads, please get in touch with me via my email if you have a story to tell, gspservices@xtra.co.nz, believe me you are not on your own. Judging by the feed back that I have already received from the above emails my experience isn't anything too out of the ordinary, it seems it is the norm, it is only if we speak in numbers that people will listen and remember it is an election year, that's what democracy is all about.

Offline Badger

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P.S. Any comments will be treated in strict confidence, remember it is about numbers. From my experience no exaggeration is necessary and please keep all input totally factual and able to be backed up,  a big thank you to all those that have and to those that will, cheers all the best.

Offline chilly

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Hi Badger i believe you will be attending the meeting at the ombudsman in wellington sometime in march i will also be there , and hopefully we can blow the board and its evil arparthied  attitude out of the water. They have had a hold on normal working guys and there families for some time now and it is a disgrace that they have not been challenged before, i have followed your story  and find it disgusting how you have been treated i have also been through the ringer with the do as i say attitude from the pgdb ,plumbers in this country must stand up together and get rid of the pgdb or they will be ground in the dirt , because thats how they see us as something they have trodden in. John key doesnt give a toss neither does bill english as they have had constant emails , and they have ignored them . It doesnt matter where you come from if you dont wake up plumbers and stand up to the pgdb you will only have yourselves to blame cheers badger and i will see you in wellington chilly

Offline Badger

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Hi Chilly

Just got off the phone to one of the best plumber/gasfitters I have ever worked with, a very keen and clever young lad who was once my apprentice, A KIWI, lives in Aussie now, misses NZ, would love to come home to his homeland but said "it just ain't worth the hassle and grief of dealing with the Board", his words, that is his only reason for leaving. Do NZ want all their good keen men  ( and ladies  ) to leave. It seems that the powers that be, are of the opinion that if you have some get up and go, you just go, it's so wrong. I worry about my sons, will they leave because this wonderful place that is being stiffled and raise my grand kids in some other country??

My Wife and I are very proud to be NZ citizens and I am extra proud of my two lads, born and bred here.

A very wise man once said that "the meek will inherit the earth", I just didn't know that they would be pushing pens and ramming bureaucracy down peoples throats.

Offline jd24hrs

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Re: Plumber's Gasfitter's and Drainlayer's Board "do as i say ,not as i do"
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2011, 01:24:24 PM »
Don't let the bastards grind you down we all support you JD


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