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The PGDB has listened to the submissions and are not going through with the CPD scheme as proposed recently. They're still pushing for it but it will be rewritten. Another year's reprieve at this stage......
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hi guys/Ts, what about the existing gas points system,cheers
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Still the same I think. Haven't found the release on their website yet, got an email today.
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hi guys, in my opinion it should be scrapped as it has been illigal since 2004 when it was introduced and the money returned to gasfitters,cheers
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hi guys, in my opinion it should be scrapped as it has been illigal since 2004 when it was introduced and the money returned to gasfitters,cheers
I second that Robbo
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hi guys, no change here, would have been nice to get someone more proactive!!cheers
Ministers outside Cabinet
21. Maurice Williamson: building and construction, customs, land information, statistics
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If its illegal they wouldn't be enforcing it :P
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hi guys/Ts, what just like the dissaplinary levy,cheers
p.s. you would do well on the board!
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Yep, the disciplinary levy and cpd is completely legal. If not one of us would take them to court and win. Anyone done that?
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Yep, the disciplinary levy and cpd is completely legal. If not one of us would take them to court and win. Anyone done that?
I would be happy to. If they would just lower our fees I might just be able to afford to :P
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If I thought you'd have a chance I'd pay towards it but we don't.
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hi guys/Ts, contact wal gordon for details, you may be proved wrong,cheers
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We're not the ones that need to be proved wrong..........
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hi guys, this says it all!!
An interim report submitted to the Board in September this year by an external assessor paid for by the Board,(US) had this to say about CPD under the 1976 Act:
“In this instance, the regulation-making power has been avoided”.
“The Board has delegated to itself the power to make and implement prescriptive conditions for licensing, which were contrary to the legislative intention. The regulatory authority resided in the Governor-General. The Board substituted regulations with a policy, which makes it mandatory for any applicant to complete the CPD points before an application can be considered”.
“The subsequent statutory reference in s 32(a) of the 2006 Act to competence-based conditions of registration does not provide statutory validation for the Board's CBL system or policies. The policies were adopted without regulatory authority in 2003; the policies conflict with the provisions of the 1976 Act; the 2006 Act requires the Board to prescribe registration requirements including competence programmes, by Gazette Notice under s 30; and s 32(b) provides a guiding principle that licensing requirements may not necessarily restrict the registration of licensing”.
The report went on to say this about the 2006 Act:
“Even under the 2006 Act, the Board may only prescribe requirements relating to the completion of competence programmes by notice in the Gazette. It was not open to the Board, in my opinion, for it to impose a mandatory system on applicants, when those mandatory requirements infringed the statutory rights and opportunities of the applicants and was implemented without the relevant considerations of the regulation-making process”.
In essence the independent external assessor in her preliminary report believed the CPD scheme, under both Acts, was implemented without statutory authority. The Board have ignored this eminent Queens Counsel’s advice and have continued on pushing the CPD scheme.
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Thats not a legal decision. Take them to court, its the only way. You could find 20 similar reports from assessors and they still won't change. especially if the Federation keep coming across as unprofessional as I'm afraid they do.
Take them to court or else give it up!
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Hi TS. That's an interesting comment about the Federation being unprofessional and it is noted, so I will bring it up at the next committee meeting for discussion.
All I can say from a personal point of view is that you don't have to be a suck up bureaucrat to be professional. With limited resource's all you can really do is identify the problems and suggest solutions. It's up to the so called "professionals" to take action.
From a personal perspective I would sooner be unprofessional and have honesty and integrity than to be labled professional and be dishonest and have no integrity.
If people are too thick to take note from hints and direct comments then sucking up to them isn't going to work but any suggestions are welcomed. Log on to the Federations website and send me comments and suggestions if you like or post them here. Either way we will get to reads them.
In closing I feel its better to do something than to do nothing.
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hi guys/Ts, why do you say the federation is "unprofessional" surely the Federation is a registered organization with members who are professionals so where is the fine line of guidance, you are obviously more up with legal terminology that most readers of this site so how do we become"Professional", cheers
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As i see it there are many ways to get action or an outcome of of any govt orgisination...one is to take them to court, one is to cause disruption to the community by way of rolling roadblocks...for example the farmers in europe when disgruntled with there govt roll up and block roads with there rigs causing mass delays and lots of lost revenue to the govt by way of bussiness and tax take...for a small fine you can cost the govt millions and millions and sure enough you will bring the situation to head and get an outcome either way.
and by the looks of this govt words continue to fall on deaf ears..so action is the next tool in the bag...as i see it we will need maybees a few million to rearly throw the arm of the law at the govt in court, or we can take the fight directly to them and hit em in there pockets where it will rearly hurt...a mass refusal to pay fees for example would bankrupt the board pretty damb fast and as well do you rearly think they will be able to conduct 700 odd investigations with assoiated fees etc and prosecute everyone before they roll over bankrupt...as i see it the power is actually in our hands not theres as it is them that depend on us for there exisestance.
These are actual avenues that we need to explore and serriously as it gets further and further along from the OAG's report and we have seen very very little improvment in the situation in fact it has gone backwards in some areas...
We WILL need to take decisive action soon, they sit there on there high horse looking down on us as a bunch of lowlife unprofessional trouble makers looking on with contempt not taking us serriousley well that contempt will be there down fall...all empires will one day fail and fall because those in power held the commoners in contempt never realising where the real power actually lay...be it on there heads when they fail to truley listen and fix there s**t be it on there heads when they force our hand because the true power has always lay with the people you know it i know it and they fail to realise it...just look around the world how many govts have been over thrown latley when those that have been oppressed for many generations finally realised where the power actually lay and that all started with a disorginised bunch of unsatsfied unprofessional people that caused a whole govt to be overthrown so you rearly dont have to be all professional to take action...and court is only one of many avenues still open to us.
We must live by the saying...Togeather we stand devided we fall!....whatever we decide to do we must do togeather even if some of us not fully behind the action decided upon. we must act as a single unit to be strong.
this is only my view of this situation anyways
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Way to go Thunderhead. I think you are right that everyone reaches a breaking point at some time.
The powers to be need to be wary - just because they are new to their jobs doesn't mean the problems are new.
We have had continual problems for nearly ten years and as you say we are going backwards.
Decisive action must be made by either them or us very soon.
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TS - I am interested in your comments too. "Unprofessional"? Do you mean becasue there is no paid CEO or full time employees? Do you mean becasue the organisation is young and still smoothing off rough edges? Do you mean because of the "tradesman like language" that communications come out in? These things are all true for the Federation - there are NO paid staff, just an executive of volunteers who put many, many hours in researching, writing letters and attending meetings - all at their own cost. I believe this group has made a difference for many tradespeople across the country. I also believe there is much room for growth for this organisation and with over 850 members and another 20 or so interested parties - it has grown enormously in 12 months. There must be a need for it or else it wouldn't exist.
For one thing I believe the Federation is one the only organisation that gives trainees and licensed practioners the same equality of voice as business owners - everyone is equal and everyone's opinion is valued. There is no other organisation like this representing apprentices for example. Sure, the rough edges need smoothing, but then this is an asset to the organisation as well. They represent the views of the employees, the everyday practitioner. When you look at the responses to the PGDB consultations of recent times - the Federation has had a huge percentage of members respond. They have engaged with this organisation and supported it. If you have any ideas about how the Federation could improve, then make them becasue no one claims to know everything, and every fledgling organisation needs to listen to criticism in order to grow and flourish. As far as the court issue goes - I think this is where it may all end up, but I also think that every attempt needs to be made prior to that as well - it will cost a lot of money to do this and practitioners already have high costs and with the recent recession not too many have too much to throw around. All things take time - and that is something the Federation does have.
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My comments weren't anything to do with the Federation staff or lack of, or the principles behind it.
Where it has gone wrong and is struggling to gain traction IMO has been the tone and style of language used. It is simply too strong and too filled with emotion.
Personally, I'd concentrate less on the weekly publication and the attacks on individuals. I wouldn't have asked questions of the PGDB CEO that he was definitely not going to answer due to them being inflammatory. I'd concentrate on one issue at a time, write without emotion and instead stick to the facts rather than opinion. The "unprofessionalism" of the Federation is the sole reason we aren't being taken seriously IMO.
I work for an organisation responsible for administering a few different pieces of legislation. We have to enforce the laws, abide by the laws, make annual plans, district plans, LTCCP plans etc. I write submissions on legislation and read and hear submissions that are written to us. I've seen enough of how not to do things and have seen what works and what doesn't I'm afraid.
A change in tact is required here, its not working now.
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hi guys, The Board has identified 1,400 individuals who appear not to have a current” Authorization to work”. What a sad statement this is. It is as if work is so scarce that we have to have authorization from a heavenly body and be able pay a lot of money for this privilege of earning a living, it kind of defeats the purpose, cheers
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Hi TS
I know where you are coming from as I have also done time working for the Government and know Bureaucracy is designed to put people off and slow the persistent down. Its odd how you feel the Federation is struggling and failing to gain traction. The Federation has gone from zero to 850 members in less than a year and from memory it took Master Plumbers 110 years to get 720 members.
The steady increase in numbers is a fair indication that a sleeping beast is about to awaken. I can see you point about the questions and tackling one issue at a time but that needs to be weighed against informing practitioners. The Federation generally goes through all the niceties writting to the Board and when they treat us with contempt or cynicism we have a go at them.
In my opinion it's the Bureaucratic systems that are not working and the pussyfooting around by industry organisations over the last tens years has got us no where and left us where we are today.
It's better to be divorced from a non functioning system that to become part of it.
A change in tact is required and to carry on the way we have for the last ten years won't change a thing.
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Well said Wal.
TS you may work for council or government at whatever level but the Fellow Practitioner is written for tradesmen not shiny arse bureaucrats, if they don't like calling a spade a spade then get the F*** out of the industry's way and let some one who has even half a brain in there so we can get some of this sh*t sorted out.
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TS....."I wouldn't have asked questions of the PGDB CEO that he was definitely not going to answer due to them being inflammatory".
Not to ask a question because they won't answer is just playing in to their hands, it should be all out in public and under scrutiny.
If by "unprofessional" you mean unlike the "professionals" (bureaucrats, lawyers, paper shufflers, etc), then thank you for the compliment. But we are people who actually put their hands to something physically and actually make things happen..........not spend their time making things far more difficult than they need to be, just to validate their jobs and show everyone how clever they are and finance themselves.
TS, if you knew what I have witnessed (not my opinion, but totally factual) you would get emotional and probably even swear..........if you had it actually happen to you, I guarantee you would be very emotional and definitely use strong language. When my appeal is over the whole effin world will know, sorry about the language but those tossers have cost me my business, home and time with my wife and kids.....a position of power comes with a great responsibility, these clowns act otherwise - contrary to law and in the face of common decency........and we are unprofessional for not putting up with it??????????????.........well f**** that, sorry coarse tradesman language. I'll expect a letter from the Boards lawyer for making such a defamatory comment, but they can't because it is all bloody true(and I know they watch this site so lets see) :P here's another one Kern Uren the deputy registrar of the PGDB is an incompetent, lying bully, I'll let you know if they want to face facts by taking me to court, or even writting me a letter, but facts are facts and I got heaps to back it, please call me on it.
The biggest bunch of "unprofessionals" are the dicks you are saying we should go "cap in hand" to..... NAH, not for me I don't like the taste of hypocrisy. Respect is something earned, not free with your morning tea in a skyscraper and a fancy title, you act like a twat get ready to be treated as such.
Just one thing TS, do you run a plumbing business or need to have a licence to be able to feed your family??
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Some of you are taking my comments personally obviously.
Bottom line is if you want change you have two options. The courts or the Minister.
With both of them how professional you act counts for a hell of a lot unfortunately and if your not taken seriously or dismissed as radicals you won't win. IMO some of our comments and behaviours in the past that I've seen would be the equivalent of Hone Hariwera,Sue Bradford or John Minto. If your on the outside looking in which is the case when your viewed by the Minister or a Judge. Those three as examples actually stand for a number of good things but does anyone take them seriously or respect them?
We are looking like the Mana party of the plumbing industry :-[
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Hi everyone
TS I want to thank you for bring this subject up for debate. For me it shows the varying opinions that are out there and also that people are starting to voice their opinions. One of the things we want people to do is to speak up and let us know how they feel ands to give suggestions.
Everyone has an opinion and should be able to voice it in whatever way they see fit. In the Federations case we have kicked over the trash cans to show we are not here to be walked over but at the same time have put forward our issues.
You may be on the right track that we need to get a better balance but in saying that if the Minister and Board aren't prepared to take action and do their jobs in a competent and fair manner then their behaviour should be exposed. What other course do we have?
Government departments such as the DBH, Office of the Ombudsman's and the Office of the Auditor General have no teeth to do anything so our independent Board are free to do what they want and are really only answerable to public opinion. Even the Regulations Review Committee have no have been walked over by the Minister and Government.
Perhaps the New Year will bring some change.
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IT IS PERSONAL..... IT IS OUR LIVES AND FAMILIES >:D
when people marched against work houses and slave labour they were viewed as radicals and bucking the system and messing with the upper class's gravy boat. Which was all legal but morally corrupt, these clowns are acting illegal and are morally corrupt.
I have been trying to tell the Board that the cert system was open to abuse since 2003, and was being abused by my old boss, they waited until an explosion that nearly killed some one to take action.......they took action against me!!!!!!!
I was proved right at a very biased hearing but still they hounded me in public.
Listen here, I will act professional when they act professional...........how long do you give them??
TS you haven't answered my question, until you have it effect you personally then it is easy to pass judgement. I am proud to know people who get emotional and rock the boat.
If it wasn't for Wal and the Federation I would have been totally screwed, especially by "professional" acting lawyers, I was told by my own lawyer and his QC mate to plead guilty for something I hadn't done, very professional!!!!!
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Hi guys/TS, T.S, if you are not directly affected by the ways of the Board, is there any point of you being on this forum? What you are saying may have merit but tradesmen who have to spend a lot of money and their spare time earning points so as to buy a licence to be able to go to work find it difficult to speak in your language. I presume that you don’t personally have to jump through the same hoops for your living so what is it that drives you to rubbish the work of the Federation? Is it a bit of fun while sitting at your desk having nothing else to do/got fed up with playing cards, or does the type of work that you do naturally make enemies, cheers, :(
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Ts you sound like you have horse blinkers on saying things like this..."Bottom line is if you want change you have two options. The courts or the Minister."...as i have said before there are many more ways to get action than the traditional pompus channels of bureaucracy....this is where the govt officials like to do there fighting BECAUSE as you well know that they have endless pockets feed from the very people that have complaint aghinst them...as i have said the most effective way to fight something that depends on the very sweat of others labour is not to yield a cent to them and make a stand...as soon as there slush fund starts to run dry then they will have no power but the power to listen and fix this rotten system...would i be jumping up and down if this was a publicly funded pgdb NO i would not...as it should be...as a lawyerish dude you seem to be then you should know on the principal of user pays that the pgdb should be funded from the plublic sector AS the pgdb ONLY exists to aid the public...there is not one atom in the pgdb that is there to serve the actual pgd that do the work so why do we pay for it?.
You imagine if all of a sudden people on mass stopped paying there rates as a measure of protest you would be out of a job quick smart, wouldnt you!.
I am sugguesting that on mass we tradespeople actually stand our ground and on mass refuse to pay into a system that quite frankly is stiffled by bureaucrats such as your self!.
This is only an observation...but the problem with people like you is the sole fact that paper and words rule your life and once in a blue moon you decide to do something to justify your job for another term...while the masses out there suffer because of your inabilty to pull finger and become an ACTUAL citizen that actually produces instead of leeching off others for your life and pretending that you are above the actual producers of this world because you know how to be a literal w**ker and confuse lay people with terms that can easily be termed in common words...having exerlent grammer and lingustic skills means crap to real face value people like us, look at it this way ts when you bleed you bleed red just like the rest of us, when you take a dump you gotta wipe your own arse just like the rest of us. I will never yield to those that fasley think/believe that they are supperiour to me based on a very simple fact of launage and pompus action.
This is only my view of this situation
"We are looking like the Mana party of the plumbing industry"..this is ok with me because the mana party started with a foul mouthed angry person who had a passion for change and now look at him hes a dambed member of our parliment with the title of hounurable...lollololol...INTRODUCING the hounourable Wal Gordon...hehehe :P...and woohoo look he has just got the building and housing portfolio now the people at the pgdb would start to worry wouldnt they lololol...may my christmas wish come true!.
And i reckon if you dont display passion(which is so easerly misinterpeted as anger) then you rearly dont care!.
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Keep doing what your doing, good luck to you. You won't get a mass protest organised.
Myself, I'm a plumber, gasfitter and drainlayer who has to jump through the same hoops as you guys to keep my licenses. Thunderhead you have no idea who I am or what I stand for, or what I have done for you guys. I can't say on here because it will damage my ability to contribute on here in the future. If you read between the lines you'd see I'm attempting to help you guys out.
As I said earlier you have two options. One is out because you don't like the Minister. The only other one is court. Its a whole lot easier than trying to organise a half hearted protest.
Go to court and challenge them on the points of law you claim to have in your favour. If not keep spouting the same dribble and we'll see where it gets you ;D
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I couldn't have said it better Thunder head, but perhaps with a few more swear words...............just like I do at the merchants.
Its the oldest trick in the book, you couldn't speak to god unless you spoke Latin, and guess who were the only people who spoke Latin.....the priests. Held to ransom over language.
I have talked to quite a few Lawyers recently and I love it when they get all smug and have to speak slowly in plain English and translate so I can understand.........my reply to them is "why didn't you just say that in the first place", why make a simple situation or sentence more complicated than need be......because they charge an arm and a leg to to so...........leeches.
I hope all have a safe and happy Christmas ;)
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I've said this before and I'll say it again - we need to keep the arguments issues based. We're all in the same boat, albiet rowing in slightly different directions. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to speak what they believe. Likewise we all have different exeriences which colour those opinions. The one thing I am learning is that there is still a lot to learn. I feel the Federation has assisted the ordinary everyday tradesperson who spends the bulk of their time on the tools to understand some of the complex legislation and regulation around what they do. With more money, and more time a lot more could be achieved, but then quite a bit has been achieved to date. We can choose to be on the outside throwing stones, or on the inside making changes. There is a time for both things. I am in no doubt that the PGDB has not always acted professionally, nor honestly, nor within the legislation. The Office of the Auditor General also thinks this. The difference is that when a tradesperson acts like this they face fines, publication of their name and censure. When the PGDB act like this they face a report, they reply that they are new/trying to recitify the situation and no fine, nor any censure. They are allowed to keep on making the mistake while they are given time to change. If tradespeople were given the same opportunities then they might not be so hopping mad about it all.
The solution? Numbers talk. The bigger an organisation becomes the more people have to take notice of it. I think the Federation want to become part of the solution, but NOT at the expense of selling themselves down the river. TS I value many of the comments you make on this forum. You show intelligence, reason and have provided valuable information to readers. We disagree on very few things, but hey that's freedom of opinion and I have no issue with that. Only time will tell what the final outcome will be, whether court is the answer, or whether Parliament is the answer with a review of the Act. I just want to see some action - instead of empty rhetoric.
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I typed my reply before I had fully read all the other comments. Guys, it's not about who thinks they are better than someone else because they can put together a good letter, or a bood submission. I don't think TS has ever said he is better than anyone else. I too sit behind a desk and at a computer all day. My tradespeople are out there on the tools, so I prepare the letters and submissions after talking to them. There is an element of professionalism required to get taken seriously. I don't ever underestimate the intelligence of my guys because some of them aren't good at spelling or grammar, however, they don't belittle my contribution because I am the one that puts pen to paper on their behalf. We all work together as a team - one hand washes the other and both are clean. I think TS is right when he says the Federation are not perceived as "professional". I am sure the PGDB would agree with this. That is not my concern - as I said before we need numbers, becasue with numbers they have to take us seriously. As we grow and mature we will alter the systems and smooth the rough edges. That said, I do believe the biggest strength the Federation has is that it is raw, it is honest and it is blunt where necessary. Wal has a gift with words, I have had the privilege of reading much of what he has written and I can tell you he writes a letter worthly of a Queens Counsel lawyer. He needs to because sometimes these are the people that the PGDB get to respond to him!
Christmas is near, and the time for goodwill to all is upon us. I think the best thing to come out of this thread is that there are a myriad of suggestions as to how we can improve and believe me the executive of the Federation read this forum a lot and will take heed. The next stage will be local chapters where people can meet and discuss in person - this will strengthen the organisation and allow a more direct feedback loop so we can reflect truly what you want. In the meantime I wish you all a Merry Christmas, a Happy New Year and hoepfully a peaceful 2012!
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Keep doing what your doing, good luck to you. You won't get a mass protest organised.
Yea the only reason it will never happen is because idiots like you will never stand up...For a PRIME example look at the ports of auckland right now...are they standing up for what they believe...are you standing up ts?
I mean if you were REARLY behind helping why sit there and condem others all high and mighty?..If you rearly wanted to help with your skills that you stated before why dont you help to orginise instead of trying to put down others...how about in your infinate wisdom try to pass out a little constructive criticisum next time and faclitate action.
Lets get real about it ts the minister will refuse to work with us because were not "yes" men...i dont care who the minister is this is how it is!.
Court is as far fetched as a mass refusal to pay the fees protest...BUT orginising a protest is only time consuming and relertivley cheep, compared to going to court...i thought you would have realised that ts...And when a large portion refuse to pay fees then govt will poke there head in and say oi whats going on here!...It WILL get attention and action...be it good action or bad action it will be action.
You can live in that box called your mind ts but i like to scope all possibilites no matter how far fetched it seems to you.
And you can keep spouting that only two options dribble just as i like to spout my protest dribble its just two storys on the same page ts were all trying to achieve the same goal just you can only see two roads up that hill where i like to look a little more closley at many paths...And as you have stated your not even willing to donate towards court if we chose to so i dont even know why your persiting on trying to dash others hopes.
A question for you ts because obviousley you are full of knowledge...if i wanted to orginise this protest, where do you think i should start?...and that is a serrious question requiring a serrious answer please...A little mentoring would be nice please as you seem to have the knowledge and tools at hand ts..
I will tell you a story ts when i was around 18 i had been commercial fishing for 2years and i was thinking of leaving the boats but then i over heard a conservation from an old mechanic to my then skipper on the warf stating that he reckoned that i could never become a fisherman...i went on with those words in my mind for a further 6 years becoming the best and fastest fisherman out there who had one hell of a reputation with people i didnt even know walking up to me telling me of how they had herd about me and giving me instant respect...So please tell me i cant do this ts...like you say i dont know you and visa versa my friend ;)
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Good on you, a court decision will be binding and will have to be followed. A protest won't get a large enough percentage of participation to achieve anything and as you've acknowledged the Minister isn't interested so who are you appealing to with one?
The trade is not as passionate across the board. I know a number of plumbers in a number of cities and the masses aren't there prepared to down tools. They'll b**** and moan but ultimately thats all.
A decision from the court is not that expensive in comparison to what the true cost to you all would actually be to you all. You'll have a decision and the Board will have to listen if your right. My last words on this. I'll revisit this topic in a year and see how your getting on.......
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It is a sad but true comment that the passion is not shared across the Board. Practitioners can and do moan, but are slow to call to action - when you think about 11000 practitioners around the country and only 440 odd submission on CPD and only just over 100 on levies - it is pretty pityful. Does that mean they agree with the status quo, are too busy to do anything or just don't give a damn I'm not sure. I do know that several just hope someone else will do it for them. The great silent majority - these are the ones with the power to shift things. How to motivate them?
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I'LL HAVE A CRACK ;D ;D