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Soooooo when are the PGDB going to crack down on this??
It's getting worse and worse.... Perhaps we have a name and shame session?
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What do you mean? Anyone can run pretty much any business, qualified or not. The issue should be whether unqualified persons are certifying jobs, signing documents they are not qualified to sign.
I run my own business, but if I need a job certified I have it inspected and certified by a qualified person. I tell my customers that there is a part of my industry I am not personally qualified in as yet and they have never had an issue. Their concern is that the job is properly certified and as long as it is legally done they are not concerned who does it.
I'm sure the PGDB is aware of the issues in the industry, but your proposal may leave you open to charges of libel or slander and may wrongly hurt legitimate businesses operating within the law.
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One thing is certain at the moment if you are not certifying and nobody agrees to supervise you, you wont be issued a practising licence and theoretically wont have a business that is legal , I hope all people working under this scenario are making an effort to bcome certified as I dont see many certifiers in the future exposing themselves to litigation if and when something goes wrong , I personally wont certify or supervise any persons work if I dont directly employ them. I cant understand why anybody does they worked hard for their licence and are allowing others to take an easy ride on them . .
When the old permit system was in place I would allow my name to be used , but I had full control of that job and made sure I was present when inspections took place , with the current supervision system you have no idea what work is being done or what you are exposing yourself to.
This issue needs some debate , be pleased to see others views.
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hi guys, yes when you sign that cert you need the backing of the company you are working for and insurance, it`s all well and good to think that your boss will back you up if things go wrong but if he dose`nt you up the creek while all the time he is making plenty out of the system, i don`t think the self cert system was though through well enough so will be glad when it is gone,cheers
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I personally wont certify or supervise any persons work if I dont directly employ them.
+1 there - I am the same, it simply is not worth the risk.
The system they had in Australia years ago (not sure if they still do) where you couldn't advertise as plumbers/drainlayers/gasfitters without the relevant tickets i.e the owner of the business had to be certified (not having someone in their employ certified) - it could be brought in here - then it is a simple matter of policing. The system as it is with unqualified business owners using CP's is open for abuse.
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I agree with the comments here - there have been small pockets calling for the same system as Australia - that is where everyone has their registration number displayed on their vehicle as a legal requirement. This makes it clear to the home owner as well that theyhave a fully qualified person.
As to business insurance - you cannot get insurance to cover neglect in any form. If you do not follow the legal statutes and regulations relating to the trade you work in then no amount of insurance will cover you. Insurance companies do their own investigations into each claim and if they suspect you have not acted professionally then they have an out not to pay. Public Liability covers damage consequential to actions you might take.
Certifiers employed by business owners should only be responsible for signing off their own work. I do not understand why they would do otherwise unless they were being paid a rather large sum to oversee others work. On the other hand a certifier should be expected to sign of his or her work - this is what they are being paid for. As a firm with multiple certifiers this has never been a problem. No one is asked to sign off anyone else's work, but they are expected to sign off their own.
We need to encourage our young trainees to aim to become certifiers, not to be content to stop at licensed stage. The number of certifying gasfitters for example is very low, I think just over 1000 for the whole of NZ. We should even back the sort of apprenticeship which goes right through to certifying status, and the sooner a formal course of study is written to provide the link between licensing status and certifying status the better.
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Hi Jax
quote
I agree with the comments here - there have been small pockets calling for the same system as Australia - that is where everyone has their registration number displayed on their vehicle as a legal requirement. This makes it clear to the home owner as well that theyhave a fully qualified person.
The Australian model is you must display you ABN (Australian Business Number) this is not you plumber/gasfitter registration number but a registered business number supplied when you register your business by the Australian Tax Office
Cheers
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I'm against non-licencsed/non-registered people operating businesses which specialise in plumbing, gasfitting or drainlaying. Unfortunately they can though as the PGDB Act doesn't control it. It simply controls who can physically do the actual work.
I know of guys covering for three or four businesses which really annoys me but I make sure that same CP meets me on every job that the different businesses do. If he doesn't turn up I fail it as I'm not satisfied it was done by the appropriately licensed person. This annoys him but he's stuck with it as I have to know that he has given direction or supervised over every job.
The same problem exists with every type of regulated trade or position. I could go out and run a hospital, law firm, accounting firm or a dentistry as long as the people I employed could do the work legally. I don't see any change to this happening. All we can do is make sure they follow the law to the letter.
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While I'm on this topic does anyone remember the "Shannon's" franchises which were promoted a few years back? From memory they were the creation of someone not well liked in our industry and were going to be plumbing franchises working under someone else's ticket. I may be wrong, does anyone else remember these?
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I agree with all of the above in regards to non certifying tradesmen operating there own business. 'licensed' plumbers operating there own business's are still required to work under the direction of a certifying person but in reality we all no this isn't the case! its not simply just getting ya mate in to sign off the job! you're not qualified to work alone unsupervised so you shouldnt be doing it!
I know of a dozen business's where the operators are not even licensed! You tell the board and they sit on there hands! Soooo whats a disciplinary levy being used for? Latte's and a piss up on a friday avo? Wouldnt suprise me!!
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Hi Plumber88 - if you actually put a written complaint in to the PGDB along with some facts i.e. who is doing the job, the address etc I can assure you they do take action. I have personally done this and we have seen a prosectution come out of it. This was a situation we were called to after the job was done as a warranty agent. The guy who did it was an exemption plumber (no gas licence of any sort) working for a building contracting company who had hired him through a casual workforce agency. My understanding is that the PGDB are prosecuting the exemption holder, have written to the building contracting company asking them why they advertise gasfitting on their website when they do not employ any gasfitters and have also written to the workforce company asking what methods of supervision they have on any licensed and exemption holders they are hiring out.
The key is to:
1. Put complaints in writing (this way they have to reply in writing)
2. Have some facts
3. Have more facts (pictures, evidence of any description, or a description of the job).
No one likes doing this - but I have no qualms if there are companies competing with me who have none of the licensing or upskilling costs I have and to boot are doing a piss poor job which is also unsafe and preying on the unsuspecting public who think they are getting a qualified tradesperson.
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hi guys, yes what a minefield, do you really want to get involved?..TS, does anyone remember the "Shannon's" franchises, yes i believe they all went belly-up just like the person who thought he would make a fortune out of them,cheers
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Hi Robbo
I know what you are saying - but don't we HAVE to get involved if we want to protect the licenses of people who are working legitimately in this industry. We have an example today where we were asked to inspect some plumbing and the work was done by a guy who has fridge magnets made up saying:
"XXXXXXXXXXX
REGISTERED PLUMBER
Bathroom remodelling, roofing, building maintenance"
Phone and fax numbers provided.
This guy has not been licensed since 2006 - his work is shoddy and below standard. The home owner thought he was getting a "proper" plumber and has certainly paid for one. The work needs to be re-done. Do we report it? Yes we do. I can't compete with people like this - he has no licence fees to pay, no disciplinary levy and no upskilling costs. Why should we protect him?
It is a pain to report it to the Board, but it is a pain that is worth it because the more of these buggers we drum out of the industry the cleaner, tidier and better it will be for those companies who adhere to the regulation and legislation.
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hi guys/jax,from what you i pressume he is actually registered just did`nt want to re-licence this is what the trade is coming to today, why could`nt he do a good job? if he was a properly trained tradesman he should have been able to, if he had i would think that you would not have been involved,cheers
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Agreed with Jaxcat, how are we meant to compete when they do not have the same overheads as us because they are not licenced.
Going around fixing these guys stuff ups is becoming all to familiar!
What I find interesting is seeing these one man bands pop up and searching who owns them and then searching the board register... are they qualified or hold a licence?? Of course not!!
There boss's have just sacked them for being hopeless no doubt and now they are off on there own! It has become especially bad during the recession when boss's cut these dags loose.
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Hi Robbo
Yes registered and licensed for a couple of years - last licence lifted in 2006 and since then nothing. Actually after making some more enquiries it turns out the PGDB are actually prosecuting him at the moment, but they are keen for more evidence and would lay more charges. They say he has been on their radar for a while but they just couldn't get the evidence they needed to take a prosecution as he kept himself to small reno jobs such as bathrooms and repairs and the like. Nothing big enough to stuff up enough for someone to complain. So his fridge magnet is factually correct, and this is the whole point about the PGDB's role to promote and educate the public. Wouldn't you think this would be at the forefront of all they do. If they educated the public to ask to see a licence card and the public understood the difference between registered and licensed then we would all be better off. No one the public are confused when some practitioners are equally so.
The Board have some $250k in their workplan for promotion and education - we've yet to see it spent though.
:-[
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hi guys/jax, the only problem that i have with this argument is that we might benifit is only secondary to the Board running around as judge and jury and us paying for them to do it, it would be nice if the Board were to make a statement that they were looking after our rights as licenced tradesmen instead of their statement of being their to protect the health and safety of the public, then it might be slightly more acceptable,cheers
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WELL WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS THE PLUMBERS BOARD unqualified people running business
your business should stand or fall on the quality of your work and not how much you pay for a liceince or membership of any club
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Thats a pretty ignorant response in all honesty.. Do I agree? No!
yes your business should stand or fail on your quality amongst other things.. provided you are licensed to do so!
Otherwise you are breaking the law!
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I agree with Plumber88 - if you aren't licensed then you shouldn't be working in the trade. Legal and legitimate businesses can't compete with unlicensed people (and I include here registered but unlicensed) - you don't have any of the costs we have - e.g. licensing, disciplinary levy and upskilling.
As to unqualified people running business - we do need to acknowledge that some larger businesses will have managers that are just that - but they may have a set up where the shareholders are plumbers and gasfitters, or they may employ plumbers and gasfitters who are certifiers. This is a different scenario from the licensed guy running a business where he is supervised by someone in name only. I don't agree with this - and I don't have any sympathy for these people when the s**t hits the fan.