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Just want to run something by you all, got a guy who signs off most people in my area, which takes a lot of the work.
I go to quite a few califonts, including infinity's, hooked up to 9kg bottle x 2 ( don't want it to starve for gas, LOL) and lots of other sub standard work and when I price to do it right, I am usually told to go away and breed.
Its a small place and believe me I have had it up to here with trying to get things sorted by the Board.
I suppose my question is should the Board accept certificates from people who are obviuosly allowing people to carry out work under their ticket, if they don't work for them and are not part of their firm?? Why did I even bother to get fully qualified??
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hi guys/badger,i guess as long as certs are in and no problems arise the board are not interested, also we don`t want to make them any more of a policeman than they are already. The two 9kg is a common sight these days, people dont want to pay the bottle rental which i believe is $90 these days on top of an ever increasing gas cost,cheers
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:o The one I am on about has two 9 kgs with a pol reg in each and 10mm hose up to the califont infinity 24, with jubilee clips and the hose just hangs there, when you got people doing work like that with no overheads of a licence and cpd( and probably insurance), you just can't compete, so really in effect the Board are helping the cowboys and hampering the professional ones who comply and jump through the Board's hoops.
I tell you now as soon as an opportunity arises I am OUT OF THIS CIRCUS FOR GOOD, IT SUCKS.
As far as my experience goes, you do the right thing, you play by the rules and it just gives the Board a giant stick to hit you with and you pay for the privilege.
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Hi Robbo/Badger
Having the certs is is only part of the job. If you have a certifying who is certifying other's work then he MUST be present at time of testing and commissioning. If he is not even on site when this happens then he is breaching the regulations and as such could face disciplinary action by the Board. Those that he is supposedly "supervising" whether employed by him or others - must also have a licence of sorts - either be licensed gasfitters or exemption holders. If exemption holders then they must have held an exemption for two years or more, and they must not connect to the live pipework. This is my understanding of what the PGDB say under their rules around supervision etc. I do not understand why a certifying gasfitter would sign off work done by others if they are not his employees, and why he would sign this work off without at least sighting it. You would need to be an idiot to do that in this day and age when the full weight of the PGDB can come down on you.
If you believe this is happening you can notify the PGDB.
Badger - don't give up yet, the majority of this industry do things properly - there are always going to be some cowboys out there - but I believe we need to educate the public. When we miss out on a quote I always thank the people and just as a final note I tell them to ensure the person doing their work is licensed and tell them how to check on www.pgdb.co.nz (http://www.pgdb.co.nz) under the Public section - just to ensure they are getting a proper tradesperson coming, and to ensure they get a gas certificate. I've had at least half a dozen jobs come back to us on this basis - so obviously the "cheaper" jobs were being done by those that were not licensed.
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Thanks guys, in my experience people go on price.
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I have read the GAs Act and various other bits and bobs. Can someone please tell the the Regulation that states a Certifying Gasfitter must do the testing. I can only find references to "must be satisfied" .
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Idont believe the PGDB are doing there job properly , they should be insisting on sighting insurace cover for all the people these practitioners supervise before they issue them with licenses , if there is a problem I dont think an insurance company would cover the certifying practitioner if he has not disclosed who he supervises, as far as I am aware insurance is based on risk ,ie how many people you employ .In my opinion this situation is not( so called protecting the public interests )
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Womble - I've found this:
From PGDB website under Licensing:
Where testing is necessary to ensure the work meets the requirements of the Building Code, the certifying plumber is responsible for the testing and verification of work done by people under their supervision. Typical tests required are described in G12 and AS/NZS 3500.
and
Exempt workers must not work on any appliance connected to a gas supply and their work must be tested and certified by a certifying gasfitter before being connected to the gas supply
So you are right - but the certifier takes FULL responsibility for testing and certification - if he has staff or is sigining off for others he wants to make damn sure they are following a regime that he is satisfied with - as it will not be an acceptable defence to say you weren't there.
As far as exemption holders go - for the first year of an apprenticeship you cannot pass off this responsibility and exemption holdes can't test a gas appliance connected to a gas supply full stop.
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Hi Badger ,If you think the work is sub standard run a check on the gas certificate if it has one. then report it to the board . You cant afford to have something you have looked at but turned a blind eye to go wrong . It could come back on you
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Tried that before mate, with my old boss, tried telling the Board about dodgy/altered certs and work since 2003, then a chip shop exploded in 2009 and I've had my life turned upside down for over two years and my business ruined with lying letters and dodgy auditing.............because its all about who you know and not what you know. The same types of dodgy certs mentioned in the OAG report.Got my hearing beginning of May, keep an eye out in the press and TV.
My old boss got gifted his craftsman exam after JUST ONE ORAL EXAM, by the "impartial " investigator, the very one leading the audit in to me, and even though I got photos of Board Members, my boss and this investigator all together, at the very time I was complaining about my boss, the Board ruled at their own hearing that they were impartial, so I don't have much confidence in the system.
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Hi Badger/guys it just cant be right how can anyone who reads this not be shocked at the corruption within the pgdb has it been going on that long that plumbers have accepted it as the norm where is your morals guys why do you put up with this shit . I have read a quite a few response s from other members and quite a few just sit on the fence and say dont be personal dont abuse certain members of the pgdb well bollocks to that have some backbone and be proactive or before long you will be in the same postion as badger and many others who only want to get on in life.Then YOU WILL be asking for help also!
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Hi Chilly
I agree that things at the PGDB haven't been good, or even done legally if the OAG report and the RRC recommendation is any judge. I have also been one of the people that has said personal abuse won't get you anywhere. We need to separate the "staff" who are doing as they are directed and the "Board" who make the governance decisions. Staff do not deserve to get personally abused - they have a job description and an employment contract - as such they are expected to carry out the job as described and act on instructions from their CEO and the "Board". I'm all for holding the "Board" to account, and if any Board staff work outside their mandate, or act illegally, then by all means use every method at your disposal.
I think in Badger's case - a decision was taken to prosecute. Now from everything I have read I think Badger has a good chance of being found not guilty for the charges laid. I don't think people have done their job properly and I suspect the investigator contracted by the "Board" has done a poor job. All these things will come out in the open in the next week or two - once the hearing takes place and everything becomes public knowlege. Then it will be time to turn up the heat. I believe practitioners have been "scared" of complaining to the Board about the Board - just in case the spotlight is turned on you and you become a target of prosecution. I don't know that there is any truth in that (i.e. that the spotlight gets turned on you) - but I've spoken with enough practitioners who don't want to complain just in case they rise the ire of the Board.
We are being presented with a unique opportunity at the present time - the PGDF has turned the spotlight on the Board and found it wanting in many aspects. He heat has come on them to tidy up their act and behave lawfully. Now is the time for practitioners to write in about their concerns.
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The Board have been told to come up with a transparent complaints procedure - and this needs to be used once in place. In the meantime write to your MP, Maurice Williamson, the paper, the Board etc. Stick to the facts, don't abuse people personally and I believe you will get a response.
I wish Badger all the luck in the world with his case. He is truly someone who has been shafted - and it is a glaring lesson to all gasfitters to keep their paperwork so that they can prove themselves innocent. It seems he is being treated as guilty before it has even started. The conflicts of interest around Board members is a matter that Mr Williamson needs to address - but seems loathe to - probably given the fact that so many Boards have been rolled over. It's not a good look for the Minister given that it is his sole job - i.e. to appoint the Board.
Take every opportunity to respond to any consultation documents - for instance the PGDB have their latest strategic plan on their website and they are asking for comment. Give them some - don't wait till it's too late. This forum is great - but unless we are 100% sure the PGDB read it then all we are doing is preaching to the converted.
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We need to maintain integrity and credability, if we rant and personally attack anyone (and god knows I have had reason too, and might have once or twice when I am at bursting point) we will play right into their hands. We need one clear and concise voice that only relies on fact and reality in law, if we step out side of that we will fail, because the odds are stacked against us, it is the way the system has been set up. They are given the benefit of doubt , while we are accused and guilty until proven innocent, this is how it is, right now. I have been lied about, threatened and sickened by the levels they will stoop, but if I do as they are trying to force me to, then I am no better than them.
I totally agree with jax and chilly, we need numbers and action, but it needs to be done in the right way. The system is flawed, so you use the system against the system, in a professional manner with integrity. To divide and conquer is ancient, because it works. We need cohesion and unity. If we scatter and retreat, they will hound us out of the trade. Bullies don't fare well in the light of a crowd of people who stand firm. Get your names down with the Federation. It is about numbers and one voice. They have integrity and know the system, I speak from experience, THEY ARE THERE WHEN EVERYONE (THATS EVERYONE), TURNS THEIR BACKS, PUTTING IN THE HARD YARDS, ALL THEY ASK FOR IS YOUR SUPPORT, NOT MONEY OR TIME JUST SUPPORT,JUST BE A MEMBER, IT IS THAT EASY, OR ARE WE IN SUCH A COUNTRY THAT TO BE A MEMBER OF AN ACTION GROUP GIVES THE AUTHOURITIES AN EXCUSE TO SINGLE YOU OUT?????????
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Well said!
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hi guys, i`ll second that,cheers
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Thanks Jaxcat, I see that, but is it written into any legislation that a CG must do the inspections. "Must be satisfied...." can mean anything from "you asked your guy if the did the job right and he said yes" to "Well, he took photos and it looked alright"
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I am just fed up with people who don't do any upskilling or competency based training tell me I should do it and they are all for it and its a great idea. As you think it is such a good idea, what was the last course you did?
But you see the people in power are judged by their qualifications and experience, just as we all were up until recently. Remember when we were allowed to have the benefit of trust, honesty and respect.
I got a question for the Board. If, as your website states, the industry was 30% competent in the period 1993 to 2002,why did you give us the responsibility of self certification in 2002 and then 2 years after offer the training, in 2004, for the incompetence?? For an organisation that likes to call others incompetent, it is quite an over sight wouldn't you agree????? ;)
Its the old "do as I say, not as I do".The industry is full of hypocrites and incompetence, but it ain't the poor buggers crawling through shit running pipes.
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hi badger/guys,who are these people? do you mean the "Board"? i have`nt seen the"the industry was 30% competent in the period 1993 to 2002" statement but how did they work that out, sounds like something our famous previous leader would have invented to justify his existance and fat wage packet. did you send this note to the board? if not i think you should do,cheers
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This is a direct copy and paste from the Board's FAQ part of their web site, I find it insulting, I wonder what an audit of them would show.......oh wait there they been sacked a few times and still at it, it beggars belief.
http://www.pgdb.co.nz/Trade/CPD_FAQ.html (http://www.pgdb.co.nz/Trade/CPD_FAQ.html)
When was Competence Based Licensing (CBL) first introduced?
CBL was introduced when Parliament gave gasfitters self certification in 2002 (Gas Amendment Regulations 2002). Prior to this, the Board had, since 1993, been auditing the work of gasfitters. The audit results indicated that only 30% of gasfitters were meeting the minimum standards of competency. The continuing high level of audit failures led to the implementation of the CPD programme for registered and craftsman gasfitters on 1 April 2004.
;)
it is embarrassing that this statement is on today's PDGB website--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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For two years the Board by their own admission allowed a industry that was ,according to them, 30% competent, certify their own work ???
And we need upskilling ::)
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hi badger/guys,i see how they got it all wrong,the statement: "The audit results indicated that only 30% of gasfitters were meeting the minimum standards of competency" obviously meant that the other 70% were meeting the maximum standard,that looks like a win for gasfitters that is why they were allowed to self certify,cheers
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Well guys having read this and badger thinking of chucking it in I can't blame him. I have 29mths to 65 and will be give great consideration between now and then whether I what to carry on with all the BS that is arising with the PGDB and the govt. I am a certify er for gas whoopdy bloodydo, I up skill every day and have done so for the last fifty years only to see the industry go down hill.At this time I would not recommend to anybody to become into the industry although it has given me a good living.As for complaining Badger complain to the secretary of energy if you think this is a dangerous installation this might throw a different light on things and Just a thought I pay $92 for my Electrical rego and $85 to upskil every two years I hold two licences. I hold three licences for plumbing,Gas and Drainage although drainage is not active at a cost of $$426.35 so who's ripping who off.well guys good luck and keep up the battle