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Just got this via email from the Board - posting it here in case other members haven't seen it yet:
Dear Practitioner,
You may have heard that the Regulations Review Committee (RRC) has recommended to Parliament that the Board’s disciplinary levy be disallowed because it has not been set correctly, and you may be wondering how that affects relicensing this year.
Our advice to you is to relicense as usual. It is not yet known if Parliament will agree to the RRC recommendation, or when it would take effect. In the meantime, you need to ensure that you have a current licence from 1 April if you intend to continue working in the plumbing, gasfitting or drainlaying trades.
It is also worth noting that the RRC has not said that the Board has set fees that are too high in total but rather that part of the fee has been set under the wrong section of the Act. This will be corrected and is unlikely to result in lower total fees.
Kind regards,
Max Pedersen
CEO/Registrar
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The Government and Board have acted with total contempt towards the industry. Have a look at the "Fellow Practitioners Update" for more on this subject.
This will not be the last you hear of this. If the Board and Government want all their dirty washing exposed then so be it.
Wal
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hi guys, my opinion is that we should not pay the relicence fee untill we know the govt decision because if we pay then the rules are disalowed how do we get reinbursed,cheers
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Hi Guys
Its quite simple about the reimbursement, you don't get one. It seems the Government has put this topic on their orders list to be addressed in early May once the industry had paid over 2 million dollars in discipline fees which have been recommended to be disallowed.
If you don't pay the fees you won't be issued with a license. It's corrupt and legalised theft.
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hi guys/Wal,yes it is simple,i will not be paying any(privilege to work fees)until i hear of the govt decision. Since the introduction of the employment act of the 90s,we have gone from a union/employer award rate system to a system where all of us constructon workers have to buy a licence to work, i think that it is dissgracefull,cheers,
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It's worse than that - I talked to our local MP's office and it appears the RRC may have made an oversight not putting a date on the disallowance - so that in effect it causing industry problems - I suspect that you will see some sort of amendment making the disallowance take effect on 31 March 2012 so that a new gazette notice can take effect on 1 April 2012 - thereby meaning that there will be NO reimbursements/refunds. The Board seem to be taking the tack that they just took the money from the wrong area and they will address that by re-jigging the fees. There is not mention that they are apologetic for not following the Act at all - oh for the day when a tradesmen can use this argument and get away with it!
Those who enforce the law should act at all times scrupulously above it and yet we have example after example where the Board have not followed the letter of the law, and when this is pointed out to them by the Government and practitioners they do not even have the decency to say sorry. Robbo, there's no way around this - you need to pay your fees to legally work on 1 April 2011 - unless the industry could organise a mass boycott of fee paying it just won't work to with hold your fees - you put yourself and any people you supervise at risk. Two wrongs don't a right make. You are better to put pen to paper and write to Minister Williamson who has an output agreement with the board and one of the key measures is a decrease in complaints about the PGDB.
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Hi Guys
Me thinks its time to organise a industry wide strike. World cup time would be best to cause maximum disruption and embarrass the (dis ) honorable politicians and still before the election so we have a chance of influencing the public into calling for some results.
So how about it?????????
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Is it just this years disciplinary levy which is being questioned or is it from the first time it was introduced?
What other trade pays a disciplinary levy?
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The complaint to the RRC dealt specifically with the gazette notice which has the $266 disciplinary levy. Once disallowed I believe that it rolls back to previous gazette notice which has the $50 disciplinary levy per trade. However the interesting thing is that this probably wan't done right either. However it will be interesting to see what happens in May - the PGDB are painting themselves in to a corner on this one.
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I'm an inspector. I still get my licence every year for the few jobs I will do every year for mates. I will be holding off until after the decision is made this year.
Our disciplinary levy costs more than any other trades whole licence fee. Whats up with that????
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Hi TS don't hold your breath the idiots at the board will find some way around this just to make sure that they don't miss out on there gravy train >:( >:(
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I say don't pay then. If your inspector is a plumber as well he should show some lenience and not check for the first month or so. Theres more than one council who do this normally as it is due to the cock ups over the last few years getting licences issued from the Board on time.
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I'm pretty sure that what will happen now is that a MP will move an amendment to the motion put before parliament to make the disallowance effective on 31 March 2012 and that the PGDB will put through a gazette notice for 1 April 2012. The disciplinary levy will go down and the licence fee will go up so the nett affect will be the same i.e. the fees will be the same or perhaps even more.
I think we have had a pretty clear message from the PGDB to pay the fees this year or else you will be working without a licence. Mind you if you've seen the newsletter from the Federation with a pic of the licence you'll see its actually called an authorisation card - is this legally a licence?? How will they work the supervision names on the back.... The questions keep on coming and the PGDB keep on making cock ups...
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What makes you think the levy will go down and the license fee up?
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The levy will go down because the PGDB cannot charge (within the disciplinary levy) for prosecuting non-licensed tradespeople. Those prosecuted through the district court (i.e. registered but unlicensed people, and members of the public doing their own plumbing, gasfitting or drainlaying) must be paid for separately - and not accounted for in the disciplinary levy. This is how the Act reads. It only allows the PGDB to recover costs related to actual disciplinary action against licensed persons. So... up until now they have been using the Disciplinary Levy for all the costs associated with prosecutions (both practitioners and non practitioners). The RRC have said they have mis used their powers and therefore cannot continue to do this. The PGDB will therefore have to reflect the ACTUAL costs of disciplinary practitioners in the Disciplinary Levy so this will go down, but they still have to prosecute unlicensed people and therefore the only other place this can come from is the actual licence fee, or they impose another levy for prosecuting this group of people. Either way mate we'll have to pay.
The answer to all of this is to get a slice of the Gas Levy paid by everyone in their energy account (at present the electrical levy on your power bill goes I think to the Electrical Workers Registration Board - and they use it to prosecute non licensed people who do electrical work) - well the gas levy goes to the commerce commission and they get to spend it. We need some of this to go to the PGDB to prosecute unlicensed people who do their own gasfitting (it couldn't legally be used to prosecute those who do plumbing or drainlaying).
What everyone needs to do - PLEASE - is email Tim Macindoe MP who withdrew the notice of disallowance from Parliament so that the notice disallowing the disciplinary levy and slapping the PGDB for wrongdoing - and ask him why the hell he did that and did not let Parliament democratic process work? He is the local MP for Hamilton West I think. tim.macindoe@parliament.govt.nz A pile of emails might make him rethink whether he has done the right thing. That
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Believe me - sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword and for once this industry needs to show that it won't take this sort of action lying down. We do want to see non licensed people prosecuted, of course we do, but those who judge others (the PGDB) must act scrupulously in their dealings, honestly and legally. If they do not act properly - how can they sit in judgement on others and pass sentence on them? If we do wrong we accept responsibility (or have that responsibility forced on us in the form of fines, loss of licence, costs, directives to work under supervision or course requirements) but what has happened to the PGDB in view of their continued wrong doings as evidence by the list of things in the OAG Report and now more recently the two large errors they have made that are highlighted in the Regulation Review committee report.
We, as practitioners, were counting on our MP's to stand up for what is right, to serve the PGDB with a slap and tell them that they can't break the law and continue to break it. But what have they done? Seemingly backed away from the fight. I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but somewhere, someone with a fair bit of clout is pulling some very delicate strings - and the ones who suffer are us, the common, ordinary working person, trying to do their best and earn a crust. Shame on the politicans that are party to this - I say flush (pardon the pun) them out and name them on this forum. Email your local MP and ask them where they stand on this matter - and then let the rest of us know. I've emailed my local MP and also Tim Macindoe asking them to explain where they sit.
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just emailed him now man
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Update - Tim Macindo has withdrawn the original motion to disallow and a new motion has been put by Charles Chauvel who is the Chair of the RRC, it moves for disallowance of the points system which would take effect 21 days after it was tabled (if no debate or action takes place) - however the sections relating to the disciplinary level have now got a date attached to them for the disallowance to take place - and that date is 31 March 2012, which means that the PGDB can gazette a notice taking effect 1 April 2012 for new fees which are likely to be a reduced disciplinary levy (as they cannot legally charge practitioners for disciplinary action against non practitioners under this levy), and increase either the licence fee, or introduce another levy to cover action against non practitioners. So essentially what we are seeing is MP's working with the PGDB to fleece tradespeople, probably with the DBH in the mix "advising" everyone. This is a slap in the face for the two tradesmen that spent many hours preparing this case. It wouldn't hurt to email Charles Chauvel asking him why the RRC have amended the motion to assist the PGDB to continue to rip tradespeople off until 31 March 2012. But be polite if you do send it otherwise it doesn't paint us in a good light, and they tend to ignore it.
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What does disallowance of the points system mean? Is it to be scrapped?
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My understanding is that's what it means. You needs points for gas for 1 April, but after the disallowance date I don't see how getting points can be deemed a condition of licence. The PGDB are going to have to come out with some communication very fast - a lot of business has been done around teh points system. I have suspended all upskilling (formal courses that cost $$) until we have a communication from the PGDB. In the meantime we will continue to upskill as we always have - but outside the system set up by the PGDB. The next few weeks will be most interesting. I encourage you all to read the RRC motion etc which can be found on the Parliamentary website - and see what you think. I don't think anyone should base decisions on others opinions - find out for yourself so you are sure in your own decision making. I'm no expert on this, but I make a lot of phone calls and keep up to date with what is going on - by reading and writing letters to the appropriate agencies and politicians and getting information via the Official Information Act. We ALL need to start doing this.
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So whats the chances of reimbursement if we've had to shell out to go on these mandatory course and they are found to have been wrongfully forced upon us?
I would have thought the disallowance would have been only for plumbing and drainlaying CPD requirements, are you thinking they've been wrong in having it for gas also?
This is going to be a major can of worms indeed :D
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Chances of reimbursement in my opinion zero, unless a group of tradespeople could get together and bring a class action against the Board. You'd need to find a lawyer who wanted to do it on a contingency basis. I know that some investigations have been made around legal action and one figure bandied about by a barrister was that he would want $50k but it could get to $100k if it went to the High Court. Unless everyone got together to start a legal fund then I don't know too many plumbers, gasfitters or drainlayers who could come up with that individually. Mind you I have toyed with the idea of opening a bank account and suggesting we look at $20 per head to kick the ball off.
Yes, I think the gas points will also disappear too, they were not consulted on properly. The PGDB will need to come up with something else, a new scheme and then consult on it, get feedback and consult on the recommendations. That is my understanding. However, I think as practitioners we should still be championing upskilling - it is important to keep learning, however it is the scheme currently running that is rotten. As at 1 April all gazette notices stand i.e. you have to pay your fees and you have to have the gas points, as at mid June this year then I believe the points will no longer be able to be a condition to licence - and the govt are currently sitting on the motion around the disciplinary levy which is not meant to take affect until 31 March 2012, and by then the PGDB will have butt coverered and have a new notice in place to grab a similar, if not larger amount of cash off you.
Keep reading the Federation newsletters, they keep everyone up to date with current movements, and the movements are very swift at the moment!
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Just food for thought.The PGDB and Govt I wonder whether they have given anythought to those of us who will be retiring or thinking of retiring over the next ten years. If this BS goes on much longer I know one Plumber Gasfitter who won't be registering at 65 and I am sure that there Will be plenty more thus depleting the stocks an knowledge of the industry.So PGDB and GOVT cut with the BS and let us provide the very best to our customers with whom we have been associated over many years and encourage us old Buggers to stay on in an industry which continues to provide the very best without any interference from anyone.
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That came up when CPD was introduced for gas and it didn't worry them at all.