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Gas Appliances and Trade Me.
The Problem we face: Mrs Smith called us the other day to install a fire place she bought on Trade Me. Of course it was cheaper then anywhere else but the problem was we couldn't install it due to the fact the appliance was imported and not registered in NZ. Mrs Smith can now try to get her money back (I don't think that will happen) and pay the right price for the right fireplace.
How do you feel about this? Should anyone be able to sell gas appliances? Should the supplier or Merchant be selling directly to the public? ::)
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hi guys,i believe it would be very difficult to stop anyone from selling gas appliances privately. To prevent the sales on trade-me you would have to stop trade-me from listing them, the problem with buying from an auction is that you are not covered by the consumers gaurantee act, once the auction has started that is,if you use the BUY-NOW price then you will be covered,cheers
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Very interesting, did not know that! :o
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We have had some shockers with second hand appliances - cracked heat exchangers, rusty flues and heaters - its real buyer beware stuff. We get phone calls about appliances prior to people purchasing and always give them some guidelines about questions to ask - but essentially they need to ask themselves why the person would be selling it - usually because it is old, there is something wrong with it or you can't get parts any longer. I do have to say that we have installed a Vulcan Wall Furnace purchased off TM for a customer. It was sold by a school who were refurbishing and purchasing energy savers. The heater was in prime working condition and was a real bargain for the customer, however I think these examples are rare. I believe Rinnai are selling appliances on Trade Me (of old stock) and probably some of the second tier merchants may well be too. Tradesmen in business for themselves are undoubtedly doing it as well. There is one guy who was/is selling Rheem HWC at dirt cheap prices - we only became aware of it when a customer queried our price and gave us the website to visit - stuff was being sold very cheaply - and he was using the merchants freight service to send it to consumers around the country.
It's a dog eat dog world out there!
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HI everyone i believe its a free market so if you want to sell an appliance on trade me or anywhere else thats your choice , the installer then has the choice to install the item, if its not fit or safe to be installed he doesnt do it. If the general public want to waste money on faulty equipment thats there choice.
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Hard one to say...but in respect to public safety...like cars...gas appliances should be sold as fit for purpose or in running order...and if not then should be sold...as is /where is, needs wof...maybees people who intend to sell gas appliances need to wof that appliance before sale in the name of public safety????? or at least state when the last service was done on the appliance which means a new avenue for gasfitters issuing servicing reports on appliances...its like if you use electric tools on a big building site the gear must be inspected and tagged by a sparky every 6mts/year? the same should apply for ALL gas appliances or gas fixtures to be reinspected every year for safety reasons?????
But i cant see anything like that happening soon....so buyer beware!.
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The issue is about public safety really, and as gas appliances are so critical re: condition, suitability for purpose and installation, there should be at the very least, Govt. regulation about the sale as well as the installation of them.
Having said that, there seems to be little about any accidents or fatalities due to the appliances used. It would be interesting to see if there are any stats on that.
One would hope that all gasfitters are as conscientious as the OP in refusing to install anything not registered as legal in NZ.
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i dont think that she will be able to get her money back unless they agreed on a warranty where the seller can replace the item. Maybe the seller has the manual on how to set up the fire place.
davewilliams of Denver Plumbing (http://www.chaputrootmaster.com)
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i dont really agree with the general public buying gas appliances but with nz being so small it is proberly the only way to bring the prices down we should make our money on our expertise and not the appliances we sell, example is a radiator 20 pounds in the uk 200 dollers here this just stops us making our markets bigger ie heating hand basin in uk 30 pounds $300 here
so i suppose what im saying is we want to open up our markets but not allow our labour rates to go down but to increase
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i dont really agree with the general public buying gas appliances but with nz being so small it is proberly the only way to bring the prices down we should make our money on our expertise and not the appliances we sell, example is a radiator 20 pounds in the uk 200 dollers here this just stops us making our markets bigger ie heating hand basin in uk 30 pounds $300 here
so i suppose what im saying is we want to open up our markets but not allow our labour rates to go down but to increase
^^^ I agree^^^
what needs to happen is that any appliance that is imported needs to meet relevent NZ std - if it does not then it should not be allowed into the country
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I feel like many other things on trade me the sale of second hand gas appliances cant be easily prevented from continuing, cars, electrical appliances,tools,electronics,property and buildings even, the list would be a long one. Items may be listed as being fit for purpose when in reality they are not...hence why its being sold on. The motor vehicle industry is a major example..ive lost count how many cars ive looked at purchasing and some tool tells me "shes mint as mate'' etc etc...quick checks reveal no water in radiator...low oil level, large amounts of body filler in structual areas especially in classic cars etc,hand brake is out of adjustment,weak clutch or brakes,dodgy transmission etc People can be very mis leading to try make money out of something thats crap and at the end of the day its up to the buyer to know what there buying unfortunately. Very dog eat dog world alright.
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look at it this way explosive material will only be sold to the right person with the right qualifications to prove that they can safely handle this product to the letter of the law...the same should apply with drainage/gas and plumbing products it/they should only be sold to the right person with th e right qualifications that state that that person knows(and is lawfully qualified)to handle that product...just look at mitre10/placemakers/mitre10mega for example they sell tooless pushfit SANITARY plumbing systems and these ARE ONLY marketed at the ILLEGAL home handy man BECAUSE no respectiable plumber would ever use a push fit system behind closed walls...and the same goes for gas fittings and drainage pipe...The question i ask is WHY the hell are these stores able to sell these crap(push fit) systems AIMED ONLY at the home handy man when it is unlawful for the home handyman to undertake this type of work...where the hell is the PGDB when you need them they should be putting pressure on the govt to stop the marketing of these products to joe public in the name of joe publics safety!
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Have you asked them Thunder?
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hi guys, the Board will and can never stand in the way of big business,cheers
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Hi guys, it would be interesting to see the communication that went on between the gas companies/Govt/Board that put a stop to the gas companies being liable to a fine if they supplied gas to a customer without having a copy of the relevant gas certificate for that customer. It just shows the Boards arrogance to think that it can control big business and get away with it; I suppose our famous sacked c.e.o. dreamed that one up,cheers
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Have you asked them Thunder?
havent bothered Jaxcat because you and I both know that the answer would go something like...Sorry we have no jurisdiction over who sells what to whom and what the intended use is for, Why would we risk getting a bad public face when it is much eaiser to justify our existance by continually attacking those compentant time proven tradesmen out there, Look we know that untrained plublic members doing illegal plumbing/gas/drainage work presents the MOST risk to the health and safety of other members of the public but we beleave were only here to regulate you time proven compentant tradesmen EVEN THOUGH we steal money off you in the form of an posecutions fee which not used in any way or form to regulate you trained professionals, infact we fritter away this money and your licensing money so we can justify another fee increase in the near future...and the main reason we dont chase untrained illegal homehandy men is because were too damb lazy!
Thats aroundabout how it would go eh jax lol
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why do you think they pushed for self certification in the first place....ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY is on the gas fitter. Big business, big profits...no responsibility.....nice work if you can get it.
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If I had my way I would stop all these companys like Mitre 10 or Bunnings selling plumbing fittings and pipe etc, the Mitre 10 closest to me even loans out a dux crimping tool!!
If they can sell fittings and pipe to the general public it makes it easier for cowboys to go and carry out sanitary plumbing which is what we were trained to do and it keeps us out of a job,
ok yeah so it might be cheaper there but it wont be a professional job!!!
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Roberto - write to the PGDB and tell them that the Mitre 10 lends out a crimping tool - they will write to the Mitre 10 - they do take this seriously and will use it as an exercise to educate them about the regulated trade. It is worth the effort and the cost of a stamp - or better still email them and provide the name and address of the Mitre 10 store.
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Geez id like to know which mitre 10 loans out a crimping tool. thats bulls*it, they sell everything these days.eventually stores like mitre10 will reign supreme,every1 else selling a trade product will go out of business. And now their giving away our work too by lending out professional tools? Is there anything they wont get try on?? i am disappointed we have to purchase licenses yet i see untrained and definitely not competent people doing work everywhere i bloody look.
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And....... (this is not a bad joke but the state of affairs) .......as of March 2013 able to print their own certificate...with no third party register......or gas suppliers copy......until you need an investigator, to look into the "incident" at over $100 an hour with all expenses paid, flights and nice hotels while touring our fabulous country. Nice work if you can wangle it to your favour.
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hi guys/badger, nothing wrong with printing own certs as long as we have inspectors to inspect first,cheers
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I totally agree, lets have every job inspected and signed off by an impartial 3rd party ....but it isn't that way.
How would they know what to check, inspect, audit?? It will just be between the customer and the certifying gasfitter, all under the radar.
It will empower the dodgy guys to work unimpeded & undetected and those that shoulder their responsibilities take more of it on. We had a system that had 4 copies retained, 3 of which were carbon copies, with hand writting and a signature..... that is now halved to 2 with no 3rd party records all "signed off" with an electronic pass word. It has been totally messed up by the previous Boards of the last 10 years and going to be even more messed up if they do this.
You will only know about a problem, after the problem.
It is not the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, but the hearse. It will never work as it is proposed, it isn't well thought out. And again it will be those at the coal face who will have to put up with the cost, hassle, flak and fall out.