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National Certificate of Gasfitting
US21897 Demonstrate knowledge of the gasfitting of LPG cylinder systems for gas installations
How far away must the (LPG) cylinders be from any heat source?
Note this is NOT source of ignition but HEAT source? If you can answer it can you also provide the code/legilsation/standard that underpins it?
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hi guys, it used to be 2mtrs but that went out the window when they allowed cabinet heaters in so not sure that there is a specified distance now, however i will be interested along with your apprentice what the exact answer is,cheers
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I am sure its somewhere in AS/NZS 1596:2008 Storage and Handling of LPG - but I can't find that standard in my collection - and I am just a CP (with gasfitting experience) so thats my excuse if I am pointing in the wrong direction ;D
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Nice try guys - but it can't be answered becasue the question is wrong - and we finally have an admission from the ITO that it slipped through the very rigorous assessment net. So if you know any trainees doing Stage 1 paperwork and they look like they are scratching their heads with this one - help them out. The question is now being changed to "source of ignition" which is what is should have been from day dot. Interestingly enough - the "model" answer is 6m which is what trainees have been told to put - even though no one knew where it came from.
Don't always accept nonsense questions - if it doesn't seem right go to the source and ask for verification. I have one much relieved trainee along with six certifying and several licensed gasfitters - all glad they aren't stupid either becasue they couldn't find an answer :o
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How far away must the (LPG) cylinders be from any ignition source?
if you have the NZS 5261 code which you should have...i hope lol
The correct answer would be to reference: APPENDIX G......LPG CYLINDER LOCATIONS....G4 Clearances around cylinders...Figure G2-Minimum clearance to IGNITION sources.
In an exchange cylinder 500mm above top of cylinder valve a 500mm diameter circle to any ignition socrce At base of cylinder a 1500mm diameter circle to any ignition sources....
with an In-situ fill cylinder 500mm above top of cylinder valve a 1500mm diameter circle to any ignition socrce At base of cylinder a 3500mm diameter circle to any ignition source.
This info comes from the codes
Being that LPG is heaiver than air and will spill to the ground i guess is the reason why the base measurment to any ignition source is much larger.
Interestingly enough - the "model" answer is 6m which is what trainees have been told to put - even though no one knew where it came from. This info must have been pulled from there ARSE!(please god let me be right so i dont look like an arse as well!)
So there question is incorrect as there are two sets of clearances, being removiable change over cylinders and IN-SITU cylinders filled on site.
If i were you i would read the codes from back to front....i know there bloody boaring but i had this answered in 2mins and that includes travel time to the van to get the codes!...lol
Anyways i hope im correct and i hope this helps...and i hope like hell your craftman gasfitter has already pointed you to this section of the codes hehehe.
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this is why we should be allowed to have a full set of codes at exam time cus i didnt know the answer but i knew exactly were to source the info at the drop of a hat...if i had to guess i proablies would have pulled 6 meters out of my arse as well!!! ;D
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Thunderhead if you got back to the original question (at the top of the page) you'll see that the trainee was asked it was how far away the cylinders had to be from a source of HEAT - not ignition. This was the question no one could answer - we all knew the clearances from source of ignition - but that wasn't what they were asking.
We scoured 5261, 1596, codes of practice relating to LPG and even approached the LPGA. This was the quandry. Of course I would expect a first year apprentice to be able to answer the distance for an ignition source, but there is no such thing as "source of heat" covered in any codes.
Cheers
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And thanks for caring enough to make the trip to the van to get your codes - especially if the weather is as lousy at your place as it is here!! ;)
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hi guys,yes when you think of it logicaly, the lpg cylinder would have to be in a frezzer to be away from any heat source,cheers
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so what about this model answer of 6 meters is this the model answer to the incorect question or what dude, a bit confusing there or is this the model answer peorid?
i saw the first question and then you corected it then went straight on to say the model answer was 6 meters So I assumed that you were talking now about the correct question in that refernce to 6 meters...
Thats why i wasted my time getting da codes.
But alas you had already refernced the relevent information needed...just trying ta help.
you would have to (technially speaking)go to absoloute zero where moceluer movement stops to be removed from any heat source there fore there is no heat source...The motion of atoms and molecules creates a form of energy called heat or thermal energy which is present in all matter. Even in the coldest voids of space, matter still has a very small but still measurable amount of heat energy.Sorry robbo even the freezer anally speaking is a heat source...thats as far as i can understand the over techincal crap they try to teach us at tech....
Got a lull in the weather at the moment as a new front moves in chance to put codes back :P...and to think i usted to be out commercial fishing 100miles out in crap weather like this...
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hi guys,buddy you are right even at 50below frezzing you can still extract heat thats how a heatpump works but you know where i was heading with it. This question from jax sure got some interest and that is what we need and eventually we got the correct answer so this forum really works. I don`t know if 6mtrs is the official answer but i have my old 1976 gas code that says 2mtrs from a sourse of ignition and the present rule is 1.5mtrs,cheers
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Aww now im rearly confused robbo...let me get this straight please
The question at hand: How far away must the (LPG) cylinders be from any ignition source?
the answer i got from the codes:5261 APPENDIX G......LPG CYLINDER LOCATIONS....G4 Clearances around cylinders...Figure G2-Minimum clearance to IGNITION sources.
Is this the correct answer to the question or is it incorect and the correct answer is 1.5meters...and if so please give me the code reference so i can get my information straight please...(i only ask this cus i have not been able to find the 1.5 meter you mention in the codes)cheers
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The question which was in the distance learning was distance from source of heat - the model answer to this was 6m (according to the assesment schedule and model answer provided by the polytec and the ITO). When challenged as to where they got this answer from (and after phone calls and emails) they have admited that:
1. The question was a mistake
2. The model answer of 6m was a nonsense - it had no basis in fact, no code, legislation or standard backing it up and when pressed it appears they have no idea how a measure of 6m got entered in as a model answer.
The question will now be changed to distance from source of ignition and the answers given on this page for that question (sourced from 5261) are correct.
The ITO don't call back distance learning papers so some poor bugger trainees may still come across the heat source question and scratch their heads and wonder where to look for this answer. It's just a shame that they will waste many hours looking for an answer that doesn't exist. My next question to the ITO is that this question has been in distance learning papers for the last year - how the hell did it get marked and what dumb ass has continued to mark it right without thinking that it made no sense.
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hi guys, yes G4 is correct with 1.500 or 3.500mtr depending on cylinder size. Just to add more confusion here is some stuff i found whilst looking for the answer: cheers
Requirements for LPG use & storage
Environmental Policy & Approvals Unit
Page 1 of 2
(Hazardous Substances & New Organisms Act 1996)
(Should also be used in conjunction with Building Application Form BA2T)
Inside a Building
The use of LPG cylinders inside a building has not been adequately covered under the above legislation.
As a result the Christchurch City Council has adopted the fundamental requirement embodied in Regulation 77 of the Dangerous
Goods (Class 2 Gases) Regulations. The requirements pertaining to this type of heating installation where LPG in excess of 10kg is
being used inside a building, are detailed below:
All supply cylinders located and positioned within a building shall be isolated from any fire, forge, furnace or other source of heat
by not less than 6 metres, other than the appliance they are supplying.
Never use in an unventilated room with all windows and doors closed.
• Never place a LPG cylinder on a stove and always keep it at least 1 meter away from any heat source.
• Always replace the Dust Protection Plug in the cylinder opening when cylinder is not in use.
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Hey Robbo, Cheers for that - we have passed on to ITO - you are now officially famous in our office for finding any reference to the 6m!!
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hi guys, well it`s nice to be famous for something, perhaps a lesson for everyone that if you do the research you will find the answer and pass on the information, the moral of the story here is that information is free you just need to look for it,cheers
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Good on ya robbo...thanks for digging out that extra info...and cheers for clearing it up for everyone...esp me ;D
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sorry to be a prude robbo but in fact in G4 the measurments are for exchange cylinders and In-situ fill cylinders with the clearances (A) 1500mm, 500 mm above top of cylinder and at base of cylinder measurment (B) 3500mm only for In-situ fill cylinders whereas the removiable exchange bottles have a (A) measurment of 500mm, 500mm above bottle and base (B) 1500...i dont see anywhere where appendix G where size is a factor in this measurment...i know there are of course larger clearances required for larger storage bottles and tanks but in the residental situation one commonly sees the same size exchange bottles...anyways G4 is only an (Informative) part of the code and therefore it is not manadatory to comply with these measurments... But in no way do i deny the knowledge shared here...just like at tech they try to teach us that gas tight is the condition where there are NO leaks in your instalation! which is of course incorrect...the correct code definition is: GASTIGHT. The condition of a gas installation or gas pipework in which any leakage of gas is at a sufficiently low rate that no hazard is likley to ensure.
I know there trying to impress on me not to have any leaks which i agree with wholehartdley anyway but they have lied to me, all i want is the matter of fact info not there version of what it should be...people fail exams like this by having the wrong info taught to them....anyways i just posted this cus im a serial poster and was bored cus no one else was posting. :P
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hi thunder, you say that G4 is not mandatory and only informative, it says that "ignition source not to be within the encompassed area" that is pretty clear to me. So if you are not going to take any notice of G4 then what rules will you apply and where will you get them from, i presume that everything in 5261:2003 is the code so i would not look anywhere else, if you have more info to this rule please share it with me and all who follow G4,cheers.
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robbo im not trying ta rub you up the wrong way im only stating that in the codes:
1.1.4 interpretation ...an "informative" Appendix is only for information and guidance. Informative provisions do not form part of the mandatory requirements of the standard...
And i say this cus knowing this definition may one day be integeral to defending oneself aghinst the board if ever questioned over placement of bottles of course one would hope to stick to this information as best as one could but dont be fooled into thinking that this has to be, as it can be side stepped if the situation arrises where the full clearance requirments canot be achieved...
1.1.4 For the purpose of this standard,the word "shall" refers to the practices, which are mandatory for compliance with this standard. The words "should" or "may" refer to practices, which are advised or recommended.
eg...G3.3 cylinder connection...The piping between a cylinder and a first stage regulator SHOULD be:etc etc...which means to me i do not have to exactly meet the requirments to achieve code standards...
I am not being anal im just using the codes as they were intended to be used...
Maybees they need to rewrite the codes and make them set in concrete...but this too would serve no better as sometimes we cant achieve exactly what is pointed in the codes but knowing where and when we can bend the codes to still achieve a safe installation is a tool we all need...At the end of the day if you are to be made accountable for your work it is highly unlikley that you will stray far from the information given in the codes. But it is nice to know there are sections of the codes that allow one freedom of movement to interpert indervidual situations for what they are and come up with an acceptiable solution, and still deliver a safe installation.
With all this accountiabilty now being pointed at trades men with the leaky homes saga knowing the correct definitions and interpitations to this code will only be of bennifit to ones self.
As for another standard that might clear things up a bit more precise: AS/NZS 1596:2008 - The storage and handling of LP Gas...
I dont have this standard but would love to hear from any person that does have this standard and see what it says about residental cylinder storage...
As NZS 5261:2003 does not seem to have a denifinitive mandatory placement of residental lpg cylinders. :-[
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hi thunder,very interesting and no offence taken, this is an area which we need clarification on. Practices which are advised or recommended in my opinion should be used as if you"bend the rules" and come unstuck, how do you defend yourself after coming up with an "acceptable solution", you will have to prove your solution by refering to another written code or you will be toast. If an installation could not be installed by NZ5261:2003, i would not carry out the work,cheers
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For my two cents worth - directly relating to the truncated cone and clearance from LPG cylinder as outlined in 5261 - if the clearances are impinged on then you need to notify ESS by email and fill out their form, otherwise if you have worked on the installation you will be liable. This is not up for normative not informative. I say - when in doubt - always report and ask yourself, by not doing so "who are you doing the favour for." The biggest issue for gasfitters at the moment seems to be shabbyily installed heatpumps infringing on clearances. Report, report, report. By keeping the ESS informed it will ensure that there is more "heat" (pardon the pun) put on the heat pump installers who are unregulated. Sparkies should be aware of clearances from sources of ignition.
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The way i look at it is for the mean time being fresh out of my apprentiship very soon...i will conform to these codes but i would say after 10 years on the job i will have enough knowledge to know exactly what will and wont work...after all the codes were written by gasfitters and they themselvs did things diffrently at one stage and during writing of the codes they came to the agreement that this was good "trade practise" that is why they are informative and not normitave....and as this code is a legal document and if it goes to court then the term informative, normative, shall, may and should come into there own...
But every dog to there own bone of course and that was just my interpation of the code interpation...lol too much interpations if you ask me lol...
But just as a point of intrest nowhere in the appendix G is the word SHALL used it is all should and may...Just seems funny to me to put this stuff in the codes if it does not leagly need to be adheared to...to me they rearly need to take a hard look and revamp the codes...but at least 90% of the codes the word shall is used just in a few places it is left to interpation.
Even appendix E pipe sizing is (informative) which seems stupid to me.
The big question i keep asking myself is WHY?...why have they made these parts of the code open to interpation why why why?
AAh these bloody Traniees nowdays with there big bloody ideas! hehehe :D
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hi guys, don`t worry about distant learning just rob a bank and get free training with meals thrown in, have a look at this:-
Prisoners to receive training to assist Chch
NewstalkZB | 03:22pm Wed 04 May 2011 More prisoners are to receive trade and employment training to help meet skills demand in Christchurch. Corrections Minister Judith Collins says over the next 12 months, between 130 and 160 new training placements in specific trades will be provided at Christchurch Men's Prison. Workshops will be established in a low security area to deliver courses in painting, plastering, plumbing, drain laying and gas welding.Ms Collins says an increase in employment and trade training will reduce re-offending.
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Bloody great isn't it - meanwhile our apprentices are held up at gun point by the ITO demanding $6k to undertake training. As usual the good guys come last. I'm not against trade training in prison - but I would like to think that they have to pay back the fees once they get out and get a job. On top of that - most of the jobs you undertake now for government etc require police clearances so these guys won't ever be able to do that work - they'll be stuck on domestic and I'm sure homeowners want ex crims doing their plumbing and gasfitting. The government are looking at ways to solve the situation in Christchurch when it comes on line - but I believe the bigger problem they have is keeping the companies already operating in Christchurch afloat in the time between them getting through all the short term work and hanging out till the new housing and commercial stuff comes in. This is a huge problem - and the risk is that tradesmen will have to leave Christchurch to secure work until the big push comes.
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hi jax/guys, yes you have to feel for apprentices that are doing and have done it the hard way. Obviously honesty/integrity/respect for the law has gone out of the window paying customers may be very weary of our trades in the future, what will they tell prospective employers on their c.v. also how long for these guys to be trained three,four years. After doing their apprenticeships they can then be introduced to some legalised theft by the pgdb,cheers