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Following a defended hearing at the North Shore District Court on 19 March 2010, Mr Peter Vandenberg, a director of Atlas Plumbing Limited, was convicted of two offences against the Act.
The offences related to causing an apprentice plumber to perform unauthorised prescribed electrical work during the installation of a hot water cylinder and causing work to be done on that hot water cylinder in a manner that was dangerous to life.
Mr Vandenberg was fined a total of $3,500 and ordered to pay Court costs of $260 and solicitor’s fees of $350.
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Good post and welcome to plumbers.co.nz Bubblez! ;D
This is something all plumbers and gasfitters need to be very conscious of. The apprentice may have done this work many times or never before, but it is when something goes wrong as it is bound to from time to time, that the consequences are serious.
They could have lost their licence or injury or even death could have occured. We don't know the full details of course but it only takes one mistake and your Public Liability Cover is not going to apply if you have done something you are not qualified to do or have done something illegal.
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Latest from the EWRB on what is required for electrical work.
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Always, always, always call in an electrician. This is a legitimate cost to the customer - who are we really doing the favour for if we try and do someone else's job/trade. We work in closely with an electrical company and use them for everything electrical, despite some of our guys having limited electrical tickets. The customer is informed an electrician is required and that we can organise it, and then it is added to our bill. In the case of quotes we again always use a registered electrician for prescribed electrical work. Many on these forums moan about unlicensed people doing our work - well we are no different if we try and do work that the sparky should. I don't know the guy mentioned in this story, but it is interesting he got the apprentice to do it and didn't do it himself. Maybe he figured the apprentice was more expendable. It's just not a good look for plumbers and gasfitters to be trying to do the sparky's job!
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a quick question what does one do when called to a change of element job as the owner will almost always call a plumber?...
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I may be wrong but as far as I'm aware, an owner can change the element themselves if they wish. I recommend they call an electrician to do so when I receive inquiries about this, purely because of the risk that someone will do it wrong and electrocute themselves or short something out. ::)
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hi guys, i suspect that this guy was not capable to do what he told his apprentice to do. I don`t think that the conviction will bother him too much, the fine was tiny in comparison to what he is spending on other items, his plumbing vehicle is a Bentley worth $360000, i don`t know what you can do with these guys, he will probably do the same thing again, he obviously does not care, have a look at this insert,cheers
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I find having this licence very handy , I make sure I stay within my limits though , and always call an electrician when the wiring looks suspect , the course is expensive to do , but you learn a lot of interesting stuff, I am able to check to see if it is the element or thermostat rather than just replace these through ignorance ,
Why not make a bit extra from the job if you can , and qualified to , the customer is happy if they can deal with one trades person
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hi guys, i suspect that this guy was not capable to do what he told his apprentice to do. I don`t think that the conviction will bother him too much, the fine was tiny in comparison to what he is spending on other items, his plumbing vehicle is a Bentley worth $360000, i don`t know what you can do with these guys, he will probably do the same thing again, he obviously does not care, have a look at this insert,cheers
Obviously the fine won't bother him too much, but if they take his licence away, where's he going to take his Bentley...?
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I find having this licence very handy , I make sure I stay within my limits though , and always call an electrician when the wiring looks suspect , the course is expensive to do , but you learn a lot of interesting stuff, I am able to check to see if it is the element or thermostat rather than just replace these through ignorance ,
Why not make a bit extra from the job if you can , and qualified to , the customer is happy if they can deal with one trades person
That's a valid point. Customers like to keep things simple and if they can deal with one person who will sort everything out for them they're much happier. The limited electrical licence can be helpful, though I know plumbers who have an arrangement with an electrician who charges them a discounted service and the plumber simply adds the cost onto their bill as an item charge.
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hi guys/ed, i don`t think this guy has a licence!
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hi guys/ed, i don`t think this guy has a licence!
You mean the limited electrical? Probably not and obviously definitely not a full electrical. Doesn't matter who he is or how rich, both his Plumbing Licence and his Public Liability Insurance can be invalidated for these breaches.
Tradesmen need to consider the consequences if something goes wrong ahead of the convenience or cost of taking shortcuts. Customers can sometimes put pressure on as far as time goes, and I feel sorry for apprentices who may be intimidated by their bosses to do work they know they shouldn't.
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cheers for the advice guys...i might look into getting a limited license to enable me to do this job within the bounds of the law...funny though i was talking to a sparky the other day about this and he says he wont do it because of the risk of cylinder implosion at drain down stage as he isnt a plumber...etc etc and my boss wont touch em cus of the electrical side of things...i think its quite stupid that we in the apprentiship stage arnt tought this side of it and the govt making an offical nzqa only on element change over...at tech during the gas side of things we are taught about servicing of infinity units which has electrical components that need to be serviced...does anyone know if one needs an limited electrical license to legaly service these gas appliances as a sparky rearly is not trained on gas theroy???but it involves replacing electrical componets??? :o
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hi guys, i know sparkies that replace the elements after draining the cylinder. myself i don`t mind turning the power off,and diconnecting the wires to the element then after replacing the element i get a sparkie to re-connect, does anyone think that this method is wrong? please let me know,cheers
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Thunderhead
I understand your confusion ,the next generation of plumbers and gas fitters will need to be a lot more savvy as far as technical requirements are concerned , I think the associated electrical component should now be part of a plumbing and gasfitting training as more and more we are seeing boilers and hotwater situations where a plumber gasfitter needs knowledge on how they work and be able to service them , we do a number of jobs now where one boiler is all that is required for underfloor radiators and hotwater combined quite often with solar and wetback so a good understanding of how all this operates together will be essential in the future. Robbo I dont see any problem with what you are doing , but I would also remove the fuse as well and confirm that the electricity is disconnected , all plumbers gas fitters should have a mutimeter and know how to use it
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hi guys, i know sparkies that replace the elements after draining the cylinder. myself i don`t mind turning the power off,and diconnecting the wires to the element then after replacing the element i get a sparkie to re-connect, does anyone think that this method is wrong? please let me know,cheers
The disconnection or reconnection of wiring for payment or reward falls under the category of Prescribed Electrical Work. You should be doing this sort of work under the Associated Licence.
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I may be wrong but as far as I'm aware, an owner can change the element themselves if they wish. I recommend they call an electrician to do so when I receive inquiries about this, purely because of the risk that someone will do it wrong and electrocute themselves or short something out. ::)
Quite right. Under ECP 51 the owner/occupier is allowed to do this. See also following from Electrical Safety Regulations 2010:
64 Exemption for domestic electrical wiring work
(1) A person who carries out prescribed electrical work in reliance on the exemption in section 79 of the Act (exemption for domestic electrical wiring) must carry it out, and test the work, in accordance with ECP 51.
(2) For the purposes of section 79(1)(a) of the Act, the domestic electrical wiring work that an owner of premises may do is as follows:
(a) work on a domestic installation that has a maximum demand at or below 80 amperes single phase, or 50 amperes per phase in multi-phase, and is within the work described in any of paragraphs (b) to (f):
(b) installing, extending, and altering subcircuits (including submains), but only if—
(i) the person does not enter (whether directly, or by holding any material or equipment, or otherwise) any enclosure where live conductors are likely to be present; and
(ii) the work is tested and certified in accordance with Part 2 of AS/NZS 3000, before being connected to a power supply, by a person authorised to inspect mains work:
(c) removing and replacing any of the following kinds of fittings, but only if the work does not involve work on any switchboard:
(i) switches, socket-outlets, and light fittings:
(ii) permanent connection units, ceiling roses, cord-grip lampholders, and flexible cords connected to any of them:
(iii) batten holders:
(iv) water heater switches:
(v) thermostats:
(vi) elements:
(d) removing and replacing fuse links:
(e) connecting and disconnecting fixed-wired appliances:
(f) relocating existing switches, socket-outlets, and lighting outlets that are supplied with electricity by tough plastic-sheathed cables
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So am i to understand that the owner can do this(change a water storage element) but we cant unless we hold a limited electrical license?
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So am i to understand that the owner can do this(change a water storage element) but we cant unless we hold a limited electrical license?
Absolutely right. The homeowner/occupier may carry out the work listed provided the work has nothing to do with wiring in a switchboard. So in effect they have to a certain extent a bit more freedom than if you were doing the replacement. You are doing it for reward/payment therefore you are required to hold the appropriate licence.
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So am i to understand that the owner can do this(change a water storage element) but we cant unless we hold a limited electrical license?
Absolutely right. The homeowner/occupier may carry out the work listed provided the work has nothing to do with wiring in a switchboard. So in effect they have to a certain extent a bit more freedom than if you were doing the replacement. You are doing it for reward/payment therefore you are required to hold the appropriate licence.
That actually makes sense. (Although my son-in-law who came out from Germany can't believe the freedom people here have to do their own maintenance on cars and homes!)
As a Tradesman, selling your services, you are covered by either your own or your company's Public Liability insurance, the Fair Trading Act and all associated regulations with carrying out your job, so having relevant qualifications removes the possiblity of being sued as unqualified to carry out your job and negating your insurance. It's protecting you, in the end. As for the homeowner, if he electrocutes himself or blows up his cylinder, he only has himself to blame.
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Thanks very much Bubblez for clearing up that issue i understand very clearly where the boundry is for me now...cheers :D
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i spotted this in the 5261 codes...appendix J...J1 general...Note Electrical work other than low voltage work(below 32 volts) should be undertaken only by suitably qualified persons holding approiate electrical worker licensing...This should indercate a green light to service continous flow water heaters without a license as the voltage is stepped down...im not shure what exact voltage it is lowered to but i think this covers this issue of maintance on these appliances...as long as one dont mess with the main power supply.
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hi guys
in the uk we did a essential electrics course which allowed us to replace elements and service boilers (remove and test circuit boards and test for faults) and install all heating controls
because we new what we were looking at, if we felt the wiring was of poor condition or we tested it and found it to be possibly unsafe we just called in a tradesman to repair or replace so we could finish our repair jd
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hi guys,as ed says: As for the homeowner, if he electrocutes himself or blows up his cylinder, he only has himself to blame.
I bet if he caused fire that burnt the house down, his insurance co would say that he should have employed an electrician and would turn down any claim,cheers
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When the certification scheme goes though - how will anyone know if the work was done or not done by a tradesman?
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hi guys/jax, i hope that consumers can tell the difference between tradesmen and cowboys, also i thought the board were going to educate consumers how to check,cheers
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Hi Robbo/Guys
The only time the homeowner/consumer will call anybody a cowboy is when something goes wrong otherwise they think they just got a bargin.
Even when they get a cheep price most of them think they have been overcharged.
The world would be perfect if there were no customers and we just got paid
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i disconnect the wires from a hot water cylinder, drain it and re-connect it after its full, its not that bloody hard to re-join 3 wires!!! anyone can do that!!!
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hi guys
as a gas engineer and htg engineer i have to test circuit boards and wiring inside boiler cases it would be a waste of time asking a electrian to repair a boiler as they are to technical in time we will all be doing essential electrics as i done in the uk and abroad
jd