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You can now have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
Should registration and craftsman exams be held by the training institutes or the PGDB?
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While not being a "fan" of some of the behaviour of the PGDB - I am not happy with the level of assessment at our country's polytechnics. If the examinations are "controlled" by our polytechs only then we run a real risk of seeing the system dumbed down even more. The problem with the registration exams is not that the pass rate is so low - it is the disparity between what is being taught through distance learning and at block course under the ITO's direction - and then what is being assessed in the examination by the PGDB. For the qualification to have any merit there must be some independence. There would be none if the polytechs were solely left in charge. They would hardly want to fail people when their funding and future contracts for delivery would be measured by the number of plumbers and gasfitters coming out at the other end.
I favour a much more graduated approach - back to the Qual 1, 2 and 3 scenario. The apprentice attends block courses and sits an examination at the end of each package of learning - if he passes he goes on to the next level - if he doesn't he repeats it till he does know it and is competent to move through the system. This will have the benefit of slapping down smart arse apprentices who think they know everything and are worth a million bucks to your business - and show them exactly what they do and don't know. It examines a "set" piece of learning and does so while it is reasonably fresh in everyone's mind and also it will stop those who are not competent at any level from progressing.
At the end of their apprenticeship they should have passed all qualifications and simply be able to apply for registration. I would imagine the PGDB would have input into the setting of these examinations.
T
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And just to finish - the rougues in all of this are the ITO - they have accepted substandard delivery of our qualifications from the polytechs. I invite any of you to ask for the moderation reports from your local polytec for the delivery of plumbing and gasfitting (you will probably need to do this under the Official Information Act - as the polytecs don't want to hand it over willingly). You will find the performance of polytecs has been poor (perhaps poorer than the passrates of our apprentices in registration - yet the ITO has continued to hand over contracts for delivery to these institutions.
More plumbers and gasfitters need to put themselves forward for advisory groups at polytecs - particularly if you have apprentices - so you know what is going on at these institutions and speak up if you are not getting your monies worth. That and let the ITO know when you aren't happy. Ask you apprentices when they come back from block course some basic questions:
Did you have a tutor in front of you the whole time?
Where you there everyday?
What was the quality of assessment like?
Was there sufficient materials for you to complete your assessments?
Did you get any self directed learning?
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pgdb should have no say in training of plumbers or gas fitters/engineers
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I agree with jaxcat, a graduated system would be much better while things are still fresh in your head. It would get rid of people in the industry who aren't willing to put the effort in to learn how to do things properly.
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hi, i think you should add one more option to the poll, Should Craftsman status exist?
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Good point ;)
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Hey JD
I know where you are coming from - but
You have to think outside the box of Being UK CORGI registered.
I am a registered gas fitter in 3 countries - UK, OZ & NZ.
And they all have there different ways - and we just have to accept the fact.
What the problem is - lies with the PGDB. They have no organisation or reality of how plumbing and gasfitting work.
It needs restructuring in a big way. And it has to be focused more on having guys in a class room and teaching them the regulations, standards and the way things are done.
It CAN NOT be based ENTIRELY on a 3 hour exam.
It must be hands on
It must be attendance
It must be book work
There must be help available
There must be authorities HELPING and not putting down/rejecting
There must be going through regs and standards
Things must be put in practice
There has to be a positive leadership and not negative test markers
Plumbers need direction and support
THE PGDB should be there helping us - not Failing us
There has to be better background support for the plumbers
Then life will be great for all involved.
It should NOT be a money making venture!
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well done kiwi chris
we dont want poorly trained plumbers and gas fitters and we dont need stupid craftsman who are old earning of our backs like the plumbers board
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hi jd, I don`t quite get your point or why you refer to craftsman as Stupid. Craftsman was a status invented by the pgdb and thrust upon just like other rules and regulations that they see fit to include into our industry, reasons only known to them. The board has been given a free hand by the govt to do whatever they think fit to “Protect the Health and Safety of the Public”, so they do in the name of. If you have read my posts you will know that I am not a fan of the Craftsman status(although I have both plum and gas) I do not think it is fair and should be scraped, I think of it as an exclusive club that benefits a very small portion of our trades people. Did you know? That only Craftsman plumbers can be members of the Master plumbers Association, also Plumbing World will only let Craftsman have shares in their company. So it is not only the board that you should be referring to in your post. Cheers.
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Bring in a contactors licence makes it simple if you don't have one you cant do plumbing or gas fitting work. To get this licence you need a trade cert and 2 years trade experience outside an apprenticeship and a business course. Compulsory insurance cover and start up capital of minimum 20 grand in cash or assets....
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Robbo
If we dont have certifying plumbers what do we have , just licensed ?
What are you suggesting?
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hi sharks, it is my opinion that once a person has served an apprenticeship and passed trade exams,he is then a tradesman. To be registered/Gold Card holder/craftsman/licenced/certifiing should make no difference to his status, these are only titles given by the p.g.d.board to rake in fees for themselves. My focus is the ever rising costs of being a tradesman in our trades and the ever increasing requirements to stay in them. If our trades commanded a massive increase in our wages i would happily agree with them but on present day award rates i don`t think that the life long apprenticeship is affordable. What is your opinion? as a matter of interest i see in the latest notes from the board received yesterday, that they now want to bring in "instant fines" what next? Looks like the Plumbing Police will happen yet. Have a good day,cheers.
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Just sat my certifying common today -think I did ok will have to wait and see... I think there are a lot of issues facing the industry, the poll as to whether the PGDB should be in charge of the exams -they seem to do ok but what a lot of New Zealanders forget is that a large percentage of people in the industry are rural, I had to drive 2 1/2 hours on frosty roads to get to my exam venue today and the same back, if someone can improve the standard and have more centres in the rural areas, I'm all for it. The cbl too there are no courses in rural areas, we have to drive 2 1/2 hours to go to a course from 5pm till 9pm then 2 1/2 hours drive home again for 8 hours pay and 4 points towards your gas registration, how much time and unpaid travel will that be collecting points for 3 licences, not looking forward to next year, hope I pass some exams and get points that way!
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Can anyone explain the new brochure the board sent out regarding supervision and testing? The way I understand it is the supervision is becoming more relaxed, testing can be delegated, gas certs can be issued online, why bother even looking at the job just send the invoice -as long as you can sleep at night...till something goes wrong!
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Hi Richard, your predicament is an extreme example of what every tradesman will face with the oncoming changes by the board, add the cost of courses and you will need a huge increase in wages to survive. Write to the board outlining your problem and suggest possible solutions and ask for their guidance. If you can convince them that they will become more powerful and wealthy by a slight change or two, they would probably be sympathetic to your concerns, if not join the rest of us and wait for the whole system to collapse.
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hey richard, nice posts man.
I know how u feel,thats alot of risky driving in your own time for such a small gain.does your employer pay for the cbl courses you've had to drive to???Mine doesn't
I hate to say it but with the board at the helm things are going to worsen for us for quite some time untill there whole regime eventually comes under media scrutiny again so might as well get use to it and all that. License costs will probably increase another two times in the next five years and if the current fee review goes ahead with this $1500 first time rego BS it will choke the system of new blood coming through with their extreme price hikes driving young people away to other trades. The "board can consult all they like but untill they have lived it they will never understand.It angers me being powerless while they rape our industry again and again while we stand by idle watching.......
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Richard and Rodza - I hope that you are putting your opinions to paper and writing to the Minister of Building and Housing Maurice Williamson. This industry is well renowned for moaning into its beer and talking amongst ourselves - and while this is helpful to galvanise your opinions, you then need to take the next step and make your opinions heard with the politicians. I think it a shame that employers and employees can't work together on the CBL issues - in our firm we pay the fees for the course and I expect staff to give up their own time. If there is a particularly good course that will benefit the company then we will do it in work time. Remember though that your employer needs to make a profit so you still have a job and he/she will have been hit by ACC levy increases, registration increases for vehicles, petrol price rises and perhaps wage increases and CBL costs - all at a time when you can't really raise your hourly rates to customers. Apprentices are particularly disadvantaged over the potential fee increases and as an industry we MUST stand up for them. If the costs go as outlined in the consultation document I do not believe there will be many trainees going on to licensed status as they simply won't be able to afford it. Try and talk to you employer about a split in the costs for CBL - it benefits everyone to have currently licensed people who are up to the play with the latest information. Be choosey about the courses you attend (some are simply bad) and get them early in the licensing year so you aren't panicking come 31 March.
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hi guys
i would just say that just because you are a craftsman /or certifying thingybob it doesn't mean you are any good, some of the best plumbers are the ones who been doing it for years and weren't just given a ticket to make money by some incompetent pgdb run by a legal bod who couldn't fix a tap even if she tried, and by the way she and people like her are the ones who to undermine plumbers and there skills and that is why we are poorly paid in NZ compared with every other country in the world WE LET OURSELVES DOWN BY ACCEPTING THIS CRAP AND ALLOWING OURSELVES TO BE UNDERVALUED stand up for yourselves plumbers
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JD Craftsman/Certifying status is a benchmark. There are a lot of people who may have the skills but do not have the ticket, but I don't want to see a system where people don't have to have a ticket in this trade. We are wanting to have a protected industry. I don't agree with the new fee regime that the PGDB have bought in, but I don't disagree with everything they do. We do need to have regulation and rules in our industries. Throwing out the baby with the bath water won't solve problems either. And in some cases the PGDB are simply enacting the legislation - the person to direct correspondence is the Minister of Buildings Maurice Williamson. He and his Department are the power behind the throne. A multi pronged attack is required, but just throwing insults around generally won't do anything except make us look like a bunch of inbred idiots. Reasoning is what is required.
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Yup make your self herd...i have already e-mailed john key and the PGDB about my displeasure and now i know where to send it i will write to this minister of building and housing...in this country things ONLY get done after enough noise has been made.
I think the 4 year apprentiship should involve more intensive block course training and industry approved across the bord training material!...after starting mine at wintech at hamiliton then moving it up to unitech at auckland...i thought even though the wintec material was very simple in form it was easy to understand and assimilate the important info presented in there booklets and i completed ALL of the booklets given to me...after moving to auckland unitech...and being forced into there STUPID online learning modules i completed NONE of my modules...ALL of the other apprentises complained about this style of learning...if you have a book with you it is so quick and easy to flick through the pages and refernce material...with online you had to page up/ page down/open new windows/close windows..re log in cos it took you 5:01min to read that page etc etc WHAT A COMPLETE F***UP!!!...I fought long and hard with them to see common scense and even offered to pay for the bloody books myself...finally in my last year we are offered the books at $80 but at a disadvantage...only black and white print(with pictuer capions desinged for coloured print),Eg you will see the buff yellow gas pipe and the forest green water pipe..lol.gotta shake my head in dismay!...they are offering insuperrior study material if one dosnt have a computer(im a simple $13ph traniee not a friken money pot guys!)...if i had to do it again i would stick with wintech as i got a much more simple learning of the practise and rules...at unitech they over complicate things! on my last block course the black iron threading machine was broken and all we got as an excuse was the other block course students broke it...we all said well it wasnt me and ive paid my course fees so where the hell is the repair man to fix the machine as we only have a limited time to complete all tasks...machine is still not fixed...apalling,And they seem to once every year book in our course so it falls on a public holiday but they always schedule classes for the bloody public holiday meaning in 4 years i will miss ONE WEEK of essential block course learning! lack of material even basic things like crox nuts..88 elbows...AND they expect us to do fine craftsman work when we dont even have top notch equipment and full workshops to do top workmanship UNREALISTIC...When i go to tech i want to be taught from the book not have one tutor say do it like this then next peroid another say no hes wrong do it like this...WTF they are masters at how to confuse people!...when we were doing roof flashings i got so sick of it i asked our tutor if there was a govt book on flashings he said yes ..i said then why the heck dont you do conformty teaching and teach us from the govt accepted method!!! cus i already have a boss directing me HOW TO DO IT! if i ever have an apprentiship it he will go to the wintech!.
i think it should be a 4 year intensive night school/block course and at the end walk out FULLY qualified...Im 36 so of course 4yrs+2 following years is too long for me to reach full qual...jd is correct the piece of paper means squat...the measure of good trades person is his/her ability to problem solve and the quality of his/her workmanship.
Yes there are alot of issues out there in the whole trade but we just have to keep on keeping on, and keep pushing for change for the future of our industry...
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hi the board is making it easier for craftsmen to send out unqualified trainees while they charge out at full price
which of course has been happening all along, but the board new this but choose to ignore because as long as they get paid who cares they can have there party's on us plumbers
p,s they have been sending out there gestapo plumbers police in the taupo area recently, kern needs a new car and hazel needs fat cat wages $2 dollars is far to expensive JD keep fighting you plumbers
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Hi JD - what are they actually doing in Taupo? Asking to see practising licences?
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hi guys anyone interested in a Plumb job?
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The Board is looking for a Chief Executive to build, drive and inspire the organisation. You could come from a variety of sector backgrounds but must bring a proven track record of successful senior executive leadership.
We are seeking a pragmatic hands-on leader who will deliver a highly successful organisation. Along with being an excellent people leader, you will need to demonstrate experience in having built robust organisational structures that support the regulator who must focus on legislation and administrative law disciplines. The CEO will be expected to take a leading role in building strong stakeholder relationships.
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Hi everyone
Is anyone alive out there? I've been watching the forum and its gone a bit quiet. Remember you can put good things in here as well as bad.
The Boards has gone quiet as well. I think everyones in a holding pattern waiting for things to happen. I'm waiting on complaints to be addressed by the Regulation Review Committee and other government departments. Others are waiting for their complaints to be addressed as well. We are in the process of forming a society to help us now and in the future. I think most of the Board are waiting for the 10th and 18th September when their contracts end and no doubt the Minister is waiting for the end of the month when he announces his new Board.
He will be having a big party because as we all know every time we get a new Board everthing is alright and the industry is on the right track. The tradespeople will be submissive and will do exactly what they are told and will pay more of their money to the Boards accumulated fund.
Just a bit of sarcasm to get you guys going again.
Wal
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I take issue with the ITO being the "rogues". The rogues are and always have been the PGDB. The 1st, 2nd etc qual system should obviously be re-introduced rather than a random exam set by a group of people at PGDB who are barely literate.
The whole scenario is a national disgrace and apprentices are the major victims.
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The exam should be set by the PGDB now the past answers have been released it can't be that hard to pass, past questions amount to about 25% and another 25% reworded.
If the polytecs were running the testing everyone would pass as they were responsible for training them.
CPD points should only be required every two years to keep costs down and three licences should cost the same as two.
The PGDB should not take non registered people to court this should be done by the police thus saving us in disciplinary fees.
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My understanding of supervision is this:
Trainees - must be under DIRECt supervision the first 12 months - that is in the eyesight and earshot of a certifier
Exemption holders - must be under DIRECT supervision for the first 24 months - that is in the eyesight and earshot of a certifier
After this timeframe the certifier must supervise - e.g. give full instructions as to how the job should be done - at our company we never have exemption holders or trainees working on their own anyway, but licensed people are given survey sheets that have been filled in by a certifier that have pipe sizing, diagrams etc. In this way we could provide paper documentation if ever required to as part of an audit by the PGDB. All gas installations have a copy of the check sheet from 5261 (Apprendix 0) attached to the certificate.
I don't believe they have softened on their stance at all. However it will be interesting to see how it is policed and what the consequences of not following this will be.
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There is a number of people out there who are exempt workers ie have no formal qualifications running their own businesses , some obviously are able to get exemption licenses, because someone has agreed to supervise them , I dont know what the boards view is on this but would surprised if they are happy about it , I wonder what the insurance arrangments are , I would suggest if an insurance company is aware that an exempt person is running a plumbing / drainlaying or gasfitting business they would run a mile if there is a claim , the responsibility then would come back to the supervisor , they most probably also will not be covered unless they have advised the company of the arrangment and payed a premium accordingly .
what do other practitioners think of the above scenario ? also what are your views on certifiers agreeing to supervise licenced people running their own businesses , I believe it is becoming quite common in my area , if you have worked hard to get your full license is it right that these people are able to operate their own business on someone elses hardwork and sacrifice ? or am I being a bit pedantic , I know I wont agree to supervise anyone unless they are in my direct employ , with the old permit system you were able to have control of a job you agreed to some one carrying out under your license , but with this supervision system you have no control as to what is being done yet you are fully responsible .Lets hear some views
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Yup - I know of a plumbing/gasfitting firm in the Waikato who certify gas installs carried out by another "plumbing firm" (no formal qualifications - I see they are still advertising for a craftsman plumber on Trademe) in a different town - cost $100 per cert - no questions asked - nothing inspected - kinda makes a mockery of the whole thing. I wonder what happens at audit time?
I don't think you are being pedantic - I sure as hell wouldn't certify someone else's even another plumber - unless he was employed by me - I mean how would you know what was done and whether it was done to code unless you supervised the job yourself and observed the job in various stages? Kinda scary - certifying someone elses work
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hi guys,i am pretty sure that they have dropped the audit system,cheers
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I think the wording they used was "suspended" the audit scheme while they review it. I don't think we will see a return to the old audit scheme where you were asked a series of questions based on 5261. I think we will see a different scheme whereby they are likely to target gasfitters where competency is an issue.
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HI GUYS,JAX, do you still need to get points as that system was also deemed to be unlawfull, might just re licence, i did not mind the points system as it keeps you up to date albeit a bit expensive, but i hated the audits, very stressfull and mostly irrelevant to what i did (domestic only)cheers.
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I thought the audits were - they selected a random number of gas jobs you certified and then the Gas inspector went onsite and inspected them? Or is that something else?
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Robbo - yes at the present time you still need to get points. Gas points are required each year (16- at least half from technical) plumbing and drainlaying comes on line 1 April 2012 - so you have plenty of time to get them. The reason the date was delayed was that no plumbing courses had been approved by the PGDB until the legislation came in. There are complaints aplenty about whether all the courses not directly related to competency in plumbing, gasfitting and drainlaying are in fact legal - e.g. Sexual Harrasment courses, Stress in the Workplace Course etc - but until such time as a) someone takes class action against the PGDB and gets a definitive answer, or b) the PGDB admit they acted without legal authority in mandating the non technical courses, then the courses still stand and the points will be awarded. Don't take as gospel that these courses are unlawful - becasue like all things in this industry the PGDB seem to hold all the cards. As I understand it for multiple licence holders - one licence will require 12 points, 2 licences 20 points and three licences 24 points. If you hold all three licenses then all points must come from "technical" courses. It is always best to get the points early so you don't face delays in having your current practising license issued.
Fordy - the audit system works like this - a face to face inteview with a schedule of questions based on NZS5261 - you are given a sheet prior to audit that outlines the areas they will ask questions on. Depending on how many gas certificates are filed against your name depended on how many jobs they visited - maximum of two jobs, but say you were an appliance serviceman and did not do installs, then all you got was the verbal interview. My understanding is that the audit system was very successful in that gasfitters competency levels (as judged by the audit system) rose to over 90%.
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So to be clear - licensing year ending 31 March 2011 - gasfitters need to have 16 points. The following licensing year ending 31 March 2012 you will need only 12 points if you are a gasfitter only or a plumber only, or a drainlayer only. Any two of the disciplines will require 20 points and if you add drainlaying to your list of achievements then you are looking down the barrell of needing 24 points to be currently licensed on 1 April 2012.
Those of us employing gasfitters have been used to this system for some time now, but I understand that plumbers are feeling like they have been hit by a bus as the costs in terms of time and money are now fully being realised. I remember when the gasfitters tried to get support when they complained about this system initially and I am sorry to say that plumbers weren't interested in supporting the gasfitters with their complaints, but boy oh boy are the complaints coming now! There are good and bad things about this mandatory upskilling - the upside is that there are some excellent courses that will add value to your business - no doubt about that. The bad thing is that there are some poor courses, they cost a lot of money and practitioners are not being treated like grown ups. There should be points awarded for going to industry meetings, for reading technical literature and there should be more courses available electronically so you can do them at home. All of this would assist - but unlike other professions there are no points begging for these particular items.
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Hi everyone
All of you have gone very quiet!!.
Its hard to comment on issues when the Board is no producing anything. This year they've produced a copy of the Board news, they've have put out two Gazette Notices, both of which are the subjects of complaints to the Regulation Review Committee, they've conducted a fees review which is also the subject of a complaint to the Regulation Review Committee and not much else of substance.
Not producing anything is just as bad as not producing anything of substance. Don't fall in to a false sense of security or loose interest because we are now over halfway through the financial year and we don't have an annual report, don't have the summary of the comments from the fees review, we have a number of course that are not up to speed as far as CPD goes, so there isn't much to celebrate.
You have to keep motivated and keep up with issues, you need to keep taking about the issues and keep coming up with ideas. If you don't the last decade will repeat its self and by the time you notice an issue it will be too late, it will be implemented and you will have to fight to reverse it. Look at fees and competence based licensing.
Regards
Wal
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I think the crux of this exam crap is not who and where the exam is held...more so it is who marks the exam...some nzqa marker who could be anybody and anyone with the traning...Or someone with knoweldge in the industry that can understand the questions and therefore can desipher the answer correctly...not just looking for stupid key words...as there is always more that one way to skin a cat as there is always more that one way to explain a situation without using stupid key words!...these pgdb people are talking about being experts in our industry then why is there not experts in the industry marking the papers???!!!.
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Thunderhead - it is my understanding that all the markers are in fact practitioners. I don't think they have a lot of leeway in deciphering answers - they have a model answer that they are provided with and they are looking for as close to that as possible. I think some trainees need a slap after the exam - I have seen some stupid, stupid answers - you can see the trainee knows but he has simply put the wrong thing down. One example I saw which was a giveaway section of easy marks on licensing and disciplinary issues. The trainees were asked what the PGDB can do if a practitioner has been found guilty of a charge - and there are a number of things they can do including fining the person, publishing their name, removal from the register etc. Well this trainee had a stab at all of these but the words he used were wrong - he said the practioner could be removed fromt the Board (he obviously meant the register) but strictly speaking the answer is wrong as the practitioner is not on the Board, these are the sort of examples that are frustrating for employers to see and markers to mark. Another one that was a classic was asking trainees to say how much water (volume) could be stored in pipe say 20mm diameter, 2 metres long. Well some of the answers for that were horrific - including 500 litres. Even a housewife in suburbia could work out that you couldn't fit 250 2 litre milk bottles worth of water in that space - so sometimes trainees I think just get themselves worked up in such a state they forget to actually THINK.
Also it is so important to put whole answers e.g. the answer to a question could be 50mm as an example, but if a trainee just puts 50 then it will be marked wrong as the answer is incomplete and could be 50 anything. The key will be getting exams held each year at the end of each state of the apprenticeship.
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it is my understanding that all the markers are in fact practitioners...im just going off what the tutors at tech said so i dont know..i hope your right cus it the correct thing to do.
Yea i understand that jax...that is exactly where the system fails alot of people because alot of us are practical types and not suited at all to exams...off the top of my head i would not have a clue how much water is in two meters of 20mm pipe(i remember seeing this somewhere).628litres? csa*length...Pi*r*r*L but i had to reference it cus i dont use it!. Which is a shame cus if i did use it reguraly then forsure i would remember it!.The same goes for truncucated cones and the like....But some how now i have used it in a real life situation hopefully i dont forget it hahaha...Thats another problem alot of over information i find only works to confuse people...how often do you use this formula jax in your day to day job?
"The key will be getting exams held each year at the end of each state of the apprenticeship"...This is what happnes with nzqa we have qualifing exams each year so far...at unitech if you dont do 100% of your corrospondance work then you are required to sit an nzqa exam to pass on to the next year of traning and that exam pass mark is 100% which is a damb sight harder than doing the book work...
Your defentaly right with the brain lock that many traniees display...the problem is during the exam we cant get anyone to clarfiy the question so we can understand exactly what info the marker is after...even 37yr old me had a hell of a time trying to understand what info they are after when i did the nzqa exams...Im not a damb mind reader and if they want precise answers then is it fair that i only have what is written to go off and i am not able to get clarification on the question so i fully understand what is required of me...remember we all interpert things diffrently and this is where the written exam systems fail us as we read things in to the wording that isnt what is required because we interpert the wording diffrently(because we are not litertary scholars) which promotes brain lock and second guessing...for rego a one on one three hour verbal exam would be much better as it would give the examiner a very good idea if the trainee was confident in what he was doing or was just going through the motions...paper work is just that paper work and has no bearing on the actual ability of the indervidual...it just means that you have good memory retention...which i dont rearly have anymore cus my brain aint so fresh anymore already packed with info...I guess im an exception as most traniees are young bucks with blank minds ready to be brain washed in to a world of plumbing hell...lol
I remember when i sat my CLM(comerical launch masters) ticket required to undertake commercial fishing...it was a one on one exam with a master i was able to get clarfication on questions and to demostrate my ability to him i got one major question wrong because i was so damb nervous...but he could see this but still was very serrious about his job...but he passed me as he could see that i knew what i was doing through a series of verbal and written exercises.
I think if the PGDB are so serrious about this cpd well it should start right at the begginning and strip the whols apprentise scheem and rebuild a solid scheem...i started off at wintech in hamiliton did one year there before moving to auckland unitech...the problem i found was that they were teaching diffrent material at diffrent times so it made changing schools almost impossible as each tech was at diffrent stages...this to me is silly as all plumbing cources in NZ should run off the same criculum like secondary schools so it makes it possiable for students to change schools if required and not have to go back to dot one that nearly happned to me when i switched but after some smooth talking i continued this is one thing that any proffesional person can easerly see needs to be rectified...
Any way jax if you managed to drag your way through my waffling cheers for the reply.
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Hi Thunderhead - well one thing you will be pleased with is that there should be some movement towards a single qualification with the same teaching throughout NZ - I don't know how long this will take though. A trainee in Invercargill should be taught the same as a trainee in Wellington, Gisborne, Hawkes Bay or Auckland. I also believe that trainees and licensed practitioners should be able to take their codes, standards and the legislation in to exams with them. No one should be expected to remember all that is contained within them, they simply need to know where to look. As to the items you mentioned like the truncated cones etc - we refer to the codes often - daily almost - expecially for things "outside the square".
You are not unusual - I have four trainees on the south side of 35 and four trainees in the younger group. I would have to say I thoroughly enjoy the older trainees as I find they are more motivated (often having mortgages and families), they are consistent in their study, turning up on time, working with passion and vigour. You are disadvantaged in that it is often a long time since you studied formally, but believe me - you will have common sense and enthusiasm in spade loads.
Good luck with your studies - my only bit of advice is to read the question three times and answer it once!
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I recently sat the Certifying exams in November both the common and plumbing. As per the boards rules regarding the exams, we were to be tested in regards to the 1976 act for the last time and the subsequent exams after November on the 2006 act. My understanding was any questions and format could only be tested on acts and regulations that were valid/currrent as of the 1st Jan 2010. The board changed the format of the exams this year to include open book and a few multi choice questions. In the common exam pricing and taxation questions were totally ommited from that exam. Included in the open book parts of the exam were E2 External moisture and the H+S in Employment act. Other sections included HVAC, Internal wall linings, a question relating to the Kelvin Scale and some other obscure questions.
It appeared to me that the questions in the common exam were quite random and were not really geared to testing ones ability to run a succesful business operation. Which I took the common exam at certifying level to be the main objective. The fact that E2, HVAC, Internal wall linings and H+S act took up alot of the exam meant not much room for other topics.
I questioned the board at a consultation meeting recently regarding the common exam and its content and why it deviated so much from the previous common exams in particular the practice/past exams posted on there web site. The registrar who had a big role in setting the exam pointed me to the boards GAZZETTED NOTICES. He explained that the examination changes epecially from the Business side of things to what was tested in the common exam were all in the GAZZETTED NOTICES.
So I checked these GAZZETTED NOTICES on the boards web site. And low and behold I found the one that the board was talking about.. yes it did state what the exams would be tested on and no there wasnt any mention of pricing and /or taxation. Great!!! they got me by the balls, then I checked the date of the GAZZETTED NOTICE, it was dated March 2010.
As I mentioned before the board stated that the exams including the November 2010 exams would be tested on those acts and regulations valid and current on the 1st Jan 2010, which this GAZZETTED NOTICE clearly wasnt.
What are your thoughts on this issue???????????????????
PS. not sour grapes, as i have already contacted the examination contact at the board JOSE GOMEZ and asked the question(s) to him and also the registrar at the cosultation meeting. I just want a fair go for my friends who sat the same exams and myself. The board preach the act and they really love quoting the GAZZETTED NOTICES, but on this occasion they are preaching from a song book which differs from the one they are supposed to be singing from.
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Hi Termite
Could I suggest you might like to get hold of Wal Gordon from the PGD Federation - he is an expert on Gazette Notices and the need to consult over them etc. If you go to Federation newsletters on this website then he will have contact details there. He may well be able to assist you in putting together a case to the PGDB in writing. There is also a feedback form about the exam on the PGDB website. You certainly appear to be able to string some pretty good sentences together and therefore should be able to put a good letter to the PGDB and let them know your views. However, it is certainly worth contacting Wal about this - I am sure he will have some illuminating comments for you.
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thanks jaxcat i will contact wal in regards to this and other issues relating to the board. Im only quite young to the industry and simply cant wait to have my certifying qualifications, but the board keep moving the goal posts and not sticking to their own regs and act.
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Hey guys,
This is the speech and Power-point presentation my partner managed to present in an assessment as part of her course in Business management. She decided to expose the PGDB and the latest amendment bills to her class in an attempt to create more public awareness. She has received many compliments and I feel she has done an amazing job. I thought that I would upload it as you may be interested in viewing it.
If you have Microsoft Office 2010 you should be able to run her Power-Point which is made and designed to match her speech (script). All instructions for her Power-Point to run effectively are inserted into her typed script. So if your interested, print off her script, then open up her Power-Point and go to "Slide Show' located along the top ribbon, then click on 'From Beginning' to play the Power-Point. Then all you have to do is read the presentation script and follow the 'click' instructions that she has inserted into her script.
By the way, still waiting for Campbell Live to air the story on our industry...??? Anyone know what is going on?
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Rodza - an amazing piece of work - I hope she gets a A+ for it. Thank her heaps for her part in drawing attention to the problems industry is facing - it's good to get it out to as wider an audience as possible.
Well done!! (I love the pitch at the end for you!)
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Very well written Mrs Rodza, straight to the point and factual.
I reckon your lady should pass it around a bit mate, send it into Campbell live.
A+ from me and Mrs Badger.
Just one request when she presents it the Board, can I pop along and use a bat for the "click".....in red 8)
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Bloody funny Badger - I like that - I will read it again with that in mind. A very well written piece - let us know her final mark for it!~
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My partner got her results back today and she got a whopping 100%!!!! :)
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Well done, let me know if my prompts with a cricket bat are required.....
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Well done Mrs Rodza excellent result
Badger I'll take first slip LOL
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:) Thanks guys for your compliments! This is Mrs Rodza responding (lol)
I'm glad you liked my script/Power-Point presentation. I tried to be as factually correct as possible.
I am very passionate about seeking justice in this industry and I am very grateful to the PGDF for their amazing work!!
I watched the story on Campbell live last night and although Wal, Colleen and Alan did a great job,
I felt that Campbell Live could have got more into depth with the whole thing.. there are many more facts that need to be exposed and addressed.
However, it is a start and hopefully the more public awareness we can create, the better.
I have now sent through my speech and Power-point to Campbell Live as I feel it is a great chronological story of events and easy to grasp.
Haha Badger that is very funny and if I ever get the opportunity to present it to the Board, then you are more than welcome! haha
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Tidy ;)
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hi guys this today in `Stuff`
..Regulators step up checks of unlicensed Auckland plumbers.
The industry board is urging consumers to ask for plumbers' licence cards.
The industry board is urging consumers to ask for plumbers' licence cards.
Plumbing industry regulators plan to step up random checks of Auckland building sites because of widespread problems with unlicensed operators.
In the last 12 months the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board has prosecuted 20 operators in the region for working unlawfully.
It does regular random sweeps of workplaces and "invariably" finds unlicensed tradespeople on the job, chief executive Martin Sawyers said.
So far this year the board had conducted half a dozen licence checking operations in Auckland, and there were plans to increase that because of the scale of the problem, he said.
It was running a consumer campaign to urge property owners to "ask for the card" - the licence card that everyone authorised to undertake plumbing, gasfitting or drainlaying work must carry.
It also wanted to send a strong message to those working outside the rules.
"We are active, we are doing random sweeps, and we intend to prosecute those people we catch," Sawyers said.
The board's comments follow concerns from Auckland Council about shoddy work practices on construction sites around the city.
READ MORE:
* Shoddy building practices rife in Auckland, building inspectors say
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Its building inspectors are currently failing around a third of inspections, and the council has appointed a person full time to investigate building complaints.
Both authorities believe the building boom is causing the trade to cut corners.
"We suspect (it's) because of the pressure, with the amount of work that needs to be done," Sawyers said.
The board was seeing a variety of problems, from tradespeople who were not qualified to do a certain piece of work, right through to cowboys with no qualifications at all.
In particular doing gasfitting work without the proper authority was a major risk, he said.
The board has successfully pursued 20 prosecutions through the Auckland District Court in the last year.
"Carrying out work without being licensed or otherwise authorised to do it carries a conviction, in the case of plumbing work. of a fine up to $10,000, and in the case of Gasfitting up to $50,000," Sawyers said.
"Obviously those penalties reflect the seriousness of it."
It was a problem throughout the country, and the board worked closely with local councils.
"Auckland Council are pretty proactive in terms of drawing matters to our attention," he said.
It was frustrating for the majority of operators who were properly qualified, and for that reason they were also active in letting the industry regulator know of sites where substandard practices were going on, Sawyers said.
- Stuff.co.nz
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I read this article this morning and had a real laugh. I am quite certain that the Boards policies only apply in main centres. Sure as hell dont need a license round here. Yes the Board knows, no they havent done anything about it.
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Lets take stock....
The Board have apparently made a total cock up of the register with, according to the latest figures over 8000 mistakes on the license data.
They have made a pigs ear of the gas cert system, fox-pro is more like pro-fux, they accepted in complete and dodgy certs, while pontificating about competence and standards and performance and fit and proper people, this is nothing short of hypocrisy.
They have been proven to be corrupt and willing to cover up for one of their mates at the site of an explosion that nearly killed someone, this is abominable.
All this done with over one million dollars paid to the Registrar over 4 years.....let that sink in......did we get value for money there?
$1,000,000.00....really? Because I have a bullmastiff that would have done the same standard of work for 6 cups of kibble per day and a place to take a shit in the back garden.
EVERY ONE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THIS, ARE YOU GOING TO BLINDLY BACK THIS STATE OF AFFAIRS?....... its madness.
LETS FACE FACTS.... ITS A JOKE AND THE JOKE IS ON US, NO MATTER WHICH WAY YOU LOOK AT IT....
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......check out the test results
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These are some of the certs that the Board claimed to not have received or could not locate......then when I went to the gas suppliers and photo'd them...then they magically found them....
One of them they still claim not have received.....even though it appears on the web site........just like the cert 345138 for the explosion....
look at the gas leak test results.....empty and accepted by the board....
$1,000,000.00 bucks for this.......
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Here is a funny one.....anyone know of a Upper Hutt in Golden Bay......as far as I know Golden Bay is in Tasman South Island and Upper Hutt is just outside Wellington North Island.....
Now there is an Upper Takaka in Golden Bay......how does that $1,000,000.00 sound now, bloody expensive eh?
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You'll notice the gas test results are empty too, I got heaps of these....now its just a data entry problem if it not transferred across from the original.......but if it excepted with the original blank.....then that means there is no recorded test result.....which is what happened at the chipshop that nearly killed some one.....
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Imagine this..... the Board investigate an explosion.....and your not in the club.....you can't find any of the original copies..... all you have are these electronic copies.....I have seen hundreds of them without the test results filled in on the electronic copies.......
How do YOU feel about that investigation now......
No worries I got a letter from the Registrar stating that the test results is not a required field....must be true because he was paid over $1,000,000.00 bucks for four years work.....
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Here you are guys in the mans own words.....
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Now bear in mind guys this wasn't a random question of mine......it was for a site that feckin BLEW UP......and nearly KILLED someone......
Because of a leak......on a hose that was sold after I left......with all copies of the last work done minus a TEST FOR LEAKS.....
$1,000,000.00 buck worth of bullshit right there for you.......guess who chipped in for that large sum of money.......YOU!
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Here is a doosy.......this is the one that resulted in Max, the million dollar man, putting on the disclaimer on the $600,000.00 fox pro system that organised (past tense) the gas SAFETY cert system....
You will notice that the paper original has no mention of me what so ever......
But the electronic copy has me all over it......
There is a reason for this, this too is a doosy.....
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the reason I believe that I am on the electronic copy.....is because when I left Allgas, under Darnley's employ, because of fears for safety of the public.
The day I told him where he could shove his job, the same day I got a written warning for.....he went and ordered 4 books of certs in my name.....
Well.......that's 100 certs.....I told him I was in no uncertain terms I was going, I couldn't just leave I had just signed up for a mortgage....handed in my notice two weeks later....
I left because they were trying to make me, in contrary to the giant letter on the appliance box, fit a califont to a spa, and had just told me to use poker face when I asked for a specification for a central heating job.....the one where the TRV controlled rad's stagnant water is coming out of the shower and hot out lets....because they are on the same fecking ring main.
This was by the same dickhead that faced a charge......but it disappeared......for the explosion........the same guy gifted his full GAScraftsman/certifying licence after one chat with Tony Hammond.....The same Tony Hammond who was appointed to investigate me.
The same Tony Hammond who sent past case notes to my home....all of them sexually deviant, one of them involving child sexual abuse....unmarked of their vile content.....read by my wife......
I can't not express how much I will never let this go......or how far I will take it.....
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Now believe me I got a lot more evidence of the complete pigs ear of a gas SAFETY cert system that these pillocks fecked up, lots and lots, copied off their dodgy little system when I was living in a caravan on an industrial site missing my family (because they told lies about me in my local paper and ruined my business), but this is enough to be going on with....
Add this to the complete cock up of, apparently 8100 mistakes on the licence register.......really? because now they are amended, it appears to show the true decline of our trade......a fair minded lay person could almost believe that they were no mistake, but done to cover this decline.....
We have paid over $1,000,000.00 bucks for services rendered and those services are found to be defective......can we claim OUR money back?
Can you imagine if one of our clients paid us that kind of money to plumb out a house, then the shit/waste was all over their lawns and when they turned their water on and gas came out....they would want a refund and then some.....what's the difference between the services we get paid relatively lower for and these high flyers paid big bucks....don't you get what you pay for?
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Remember the missing cert, the 345138 for the last work done at the site of the explosion, missing the test results on all known copies.....the one NEVER received by the Board (even though there is a copy on line)
Well here's the investigators recollection....a copy of the online cert and the denial that it was received.....when you see the million dollars man's explanation it will blow you away.....
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Just in case you can't open the Board's explanation here it is below.....
From: Melanie Phillips [mailto:melanie@pgdb.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 May 2011 4:13 p.m.
To: Paul & Emma Gee
Cc: Wal Gordon
Subject: RE: Paul Gee
Hi Paul
Please see attached Belinda’s file note of her request to John Darnley for a copy of certificate 345138. This occurred after she was contacted by lawyers acting for the owner on 17 April 2009 requesting copies of all gas certificates relating to 136 Milton Street.
Also attached is a copy of the certificate received which, as you will see, is of quite poor quality.
Please let me know if you need any more information.
Regards
Mel
From: Melanie Phillips[mailto:melanie@pgdb.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 May 2011 3:22p.m.
To: Paul & Emma Gee; WalGordon
Subject: RE: Paul Gee
Hi Paul
I have just gone back through the file and can confirm that the Board never received a pink copy of certificate345138. The only copy the Board has is a photocopy of the certifier’s copy, which you produced as exhibit PG007 together with a copy of the gas suppliers copy.
I see notes from Belinda Greer on the file that the Board copy of certificate 345138 was received after the explosion in 2009, I think from the Department of Labour.
I’m sorry I can’t help you further.
Regards
Mel
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Here's the million dollar man's explanation.....now this 345138, was for the last work at an explosion, I may have mentioned this before...
Apparently the only evidence that they have that the Board received the cert is , get this.....
Someone entered it in their system......FFS.....how much evidence do you need??
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There is mention of cert 299760 not being received in the same letter from the million dollar man, Max Pederson....
Really, cos there is the electronic copy attached and the paper copy.....
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And here's the paper copy of the gas suppliers copy.....
What has the Board done about issuing the carbon copies out but not registering the original at the Board.....sweet feck all.....as far as I know
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You'll notice that I am not mentioned on the paper copy, but yet again I am on the electronic copy......is this a reliable system to bet your business on?
I left Allgas, early dec......but on the 19th I was according to the Boards electronic system installing appliances for them.....
I suggest all of the gasfitter who have entered their details in to this totally unreliable system ask under an OIA request, ALL the certs that the Board have on them....it could cost you everything.....like it did me........
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So I think we can safely say that the Board has totally f****ed up the "fox-pro" gas SAFETY cert system.....
Add that to the latest license numbers debacle.....8100 mistakes ......really? FFS is is embarrassing to even look at, let alone back these goons up and say they are capable and competent, done with integrity.....they may want to borrow a dictionary...
And add that to the total premeditated witch-hunt that they forced on my family.......
How does that CPD taste now?
How does it feel to buy back your hard earned trade an qualifications every year to fund the million dollar man?
Buying back your qualifications when they handed it to John Darnley (a sales man, no apprenticeship) after a chat......and when a explosion nearly kills someone (what do you expect when you hand out craftsman status flippantly).....Darnley faces a charge but it disappears....lo and behold... just after the same guy who gifted Darnley his full ticket, Tony Hammond....gets appointed as the investigator. Appointed in the face of my complaints about conflicts of interest....that's fair.....the Ombudsman don't seem to care either
In the Million dollar mans own words, this is the charge for the exploding chippy, see attached .....gone in a puff of smoke, before trial....perhaps it went up with the poor chip shop guys lifestyle ,along with his chipshop......
Of Note it is Tony Hammond who lobbied heavily for deregulation and the self cert system....
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Please see below.....I can't go, with in NZ, much higher.....we need numbers and we need to be heard....please write to Mr Key and ask him what is to be done, all your MPs for that matter....if this don't get fixed it could be you next.....I can't stress this enough.....
Dear Mr Gee
I am writing on behalf of the Prime Minister and Minister of Tourism, Rt Hon John Key, to acknowledge your email of 11 June 2015 concerning the issues you are having to get the person responsible for the gas explosion at the Milton Street Chip shop held accountable.
Thank you for taking the time to write to the Prime Minister and share your views.
Yours sincerely
I am looking at Amnesty International next.....
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Been trying to get this looked at since I left Allgas.....seven years before the explosion, got heaps of this correspondence too.....
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Right back since Jan 2003......the chip shop exploded in April 2009......
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Sorry December 2003......
Remember the present Minister for our trades....he told me it was I that had gone to far in a recent meeting in his caravan in the Nelson Market.
But he had this to say previously....see attached....
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The 33 page report that Mr Smith refers to is the 33 page report that Max has talked about below, i.e. the only evidence that the Board received the cert (after they claimed it had never been received) was that it was entered on their system....
So Max, after denying you had ever received a copy of the exploding incomplete cert.... the only evidence that shows you received the cert.......is that you received the cert????
This is the logic in the 33 page report that DR Smith relies on in dismissing my case.....even though he is on record in 06 asking the Board to look into this situation.....three years before one of his constituents gets blown up.....
AND IT IS ME THATS GONE TOO FAR???? Really?
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So read all Nicks correspondence......now he don't want to know......what's changed?
Except Mr Smith is in an even better position to fix this...now its his portfolio......in a housing crisis......really?
I am amazed, totally......
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Since Nick Smith wrote this letter, I have uncovered a huge amount of proof..... to prove his "fears" in this letter are founded, and still covered up until today.....but nothing has been done to fix this or clear my name.
You've all seen SOME of the proof.....what do you think?
He is in the best possible position to fix this, not just for me but for his constituents..... the very people who voted him in.
How does this bode for how we are treated or can expect to be treated? I believe it is just plain wrong.