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Support => Codes, Standards, Health and Safety => Topic started by: wombles on October 23, 2015, 06:04:20 PM

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Title: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: wombles on October 23, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
Why is this so much cheaper to buy in Australia?  Has anyone bought them from Oz instead of here?
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on October 23, 2015, 06:50:30 PM
Its amazing eh mate...you should be given a free copy when you get your first license, then a free replacement should you ever need a one. And any amendments should then be sent out to glue in, for all license holders. All this should be subsidised by the government.

Isn't it all about getting the info out there so its all done safe and well.... but its treated like some secret black art by some, with the knowledge to be sold and not shared.

I was at a standards meeting about 10 years ago, I asked why the standards weren't written in laymen's terms and not in a type of legalese that was a bit confusing.....

The guy running it said "we don't won't just anyone off the street to be able to understand it".....Well....um er ....that's where most of us come from....


The Board also said helping people BEFORE mistakes were made wasn't economically viable.....I guess there must be more money in investigating and finding people to blame AFTER there is an incident.....


The powers that be should assist the trades to do their job to the best of their ability, and foot the bill....most of the everyday plumbers I know.... want to do the right thing and do it properly, the ones I have met who don't care and are dangerous are the ones connected who get it all handed to them in their little clubs...it is totally f****ed up.





Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: integrated on October 24, 2015, 10:43:23 PM
Why is this so much cheaper to buy in Australia?  Has anyone bought them from Oz instead of here?



got a link to buy online mate? You can normally find what you need online for nix anyhow...
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: integrated on October 24, 2015, 10:45:25 PM
come to think of it this is available to all tradesmen for nthing through the PGDB website when you login is it not? login and click on the standards link?
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: wombles on October 25, 2015, 06:58:58 AM
No its not free and it is not even discounted. $576 for a set. How many have actually purchased them? It would be interesting to know how many gasfitters there are versus how many new regs sold.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: wombles on October 25, 2015, 07:10:38 AM
I stand corrected. If you go toStandards via the link on the PGDB main page, you have to pay, but if you log in you can download them for free. This old dog learned something.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on October 25, 2015, 07:34:51 AM
The standards off the PGDB site, I think this has already paid for by us, apparently out of our fee's they paid a group fee of 15k I think from memory (might be wrong)....so they are free ....if you already paid so to speak.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: wombles on October 25, 2015, 08:49:09 AM
You can download and print them yourself for free but you cant get a preprinted book without the $576 as far as I can tell
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: integrated on October 31, 2015, 12:14:33 AM
I stand corrected. If you go toStandards via the link on the PGDB main page, you have to pay, but if you log in you can download them for free. This old dog learned something.



Its not just 5601 either - you can have a look at your library to see what else is there - download em all keep em on file to refer to when ever you like....     you can request to have others added as well, but none I have requested have ever been added...
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: wombles on October 31, 2015, 07:04:18 AM
I have found that they cant be printed, which is a PIA. And it doesnt explain why the same thing is so much cheaper over in Oz.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 02, 2015, 08:04:48 PM
hi guys, try this one, cheers
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 02, 2015, 08:30:25 PM
What application is this for? from your attachment Robbo.....

"FLUEING
 Flue terminals are not to be located within
300mm of an opening (e.g. window), ventilator
or hatch (clause 8.4.1)."

its right at the end of the presentation.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 03, 2015, 08:32:39 AM
hi guys, badger what is your point I only unlocked the file for printing purposes, cheers
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 03, 2015, 05:19:36 PM
Its relevant to my case Robbo, if 300mm is even ok now according to Aussie standards AND British Standards.....and the only charge on me is for 540mm.....its a bit frustrating for me, that's all mate
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 03, 2015, 07:42:23 PM
hi badger, yeah when I saw it I thought of you so nz has just come in line with other places but hasn't rinnai had that in their instruction manual for some time I am sure I have seen or heard of it although I have always managed to fit with a .500mm distance,cheers   
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Plasto on November 04, 2015, 04:24:04 PM
Its relevant to my case Robbo, if 300mm is even ok now according to Aussie standards AND British Standards.....and the only charge on me is for 540mm.....its a bit frustrating for me, that's all mate

The Info in the presentation pertains to Part 2 of 5601 which covers the 'mobile market'  the clearances in part 1 of 5601 2013 which covers general installations are detailed in 6.9.3 and refer to figure 6.2  specifically details j and n.

300 mm horizontally is ok if the appliance is fan assisted and under 200Mj/hr input rate. 

The standard is cheaper in AU as more folk buy it there than here in NZ.  Simple economics 101. Such is life.. However were better at Rugby...
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Jaxcat on November 04, 2015, 09:08:28 PM
Frustrating as it is Badger, charges are relevant to the regulation and legislation at the time of the infringement, not retrospectively. 
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 05, 2015, 06:41:49 AM
Ok......so, what was relevant at the time of the hearing.... is the laws of physics, the British standard and the fumes actually behaving how I said it would at the hearing, before being shut down by the investigators mate who was chairing the hearing, just as we were questioning the investigator about him enforcing a non mandatory part 2 of the regs, with the fumes (according to the owner of 6 years) not entering the building and so complying with the mandatory part one of the regs.

This non entry is now proven, yet again, by the change in regs....because the laws of reality and physics are constant, the gas is propelled away from the building at force, then hot air rises....... did then as it does today.

The Board based my one last charge out of 44.... on one mans conflicted opinion, for him to blame the true culprit, my old boss....was to blame himself.....because it was the investigator who granted the true culprit a full license with no formal apprenticship....

Its a tad more than frustrating mate.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 05, 2015, 08:36:38 AM
hi guys, ( legislation at the time of the infringement, not retrospectively) funny that only when it suits them, bar-stewards,cheers
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Plasto on November 05, 2015, 09:30:31 AM
Hi,

The Clearances in 5261:2003 the old standard actually haven't changed  for 'n' which is clearances vertically below and openable window when you look in the new standard AS/NZS 5601.1:2013

The Clearances in 5261 for 'j' horizontal basically gave 300mm clearance for fan forced  upto 150 mj/hr.  Over that and upto 200 mj/hr the horizontal clearance was 500mm. This is different to 5601.1 as for fan forced 300mm is the clearance now stated for upto 200 mJ/hr.

From an infringement perspective Colleen is correct. It depends on what was the regulation at the time of the (alleged) infringement. 

I'm not sure what relevance the British Standard has to work undertaken in NZ??
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 05, 2015, 06:44:09 PM
Part one is mandatory....... and part two is a form of compliance, but not mandatory......

I think one of the co-author's of NZ5261 says it best....

Paul and Emma,

Please find below a brief overview of gasfitting in New Zealand.

•   “Gasfitting” is a defined term in the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Act 2006

•   In order to do gasfitting you have to be licensed by the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board

•   Gas work (gasfitting) must comply with the Gas Regulations and be certified by the gasfitter as complying with NZS 5261: 2003, part 1 which is the Performance based design and installation criteria

•   Part 2 of NZS 5261 gives one way of complying with Part 1, but other ways of complying with part 1 can be used. Relevant Australian or British standards may be used if the gasfitter can demonstrate compliance with NZS 5261, Part1

As I understand it this differs from the UK where home owners are able to do their own gas work.

Other sources of information can be obtained from the Energy Safety Service (www.ess.govt.nz) and the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board (www.pgdb.co.nz)

Please telephone if you wish to discuss

Kind regards
Bruce
 
Bruce Klein
Senior Advisor Building Standards

Basically if its ok and quite relevant, not to mention, tried and tested since the year 2000.... for 70 million people, with a much higher use of gas per capita, with similar construction methods and a similar climate and weather....but where people live in greater densities.....then it PROVES that this is an acceptable alternative to a non mandatory part two of NZ5261.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 05, 2015, 06:48:21 PM
And here they are....
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 05, 2015, 06:53:29 PM
And some more....
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 05, 2015, 07:33:30 PM
And here is Stephen Parker (the chair of my kangaroo court)......who is Tony Hammond, the so called "impartial" investigator's colleague for many years, and members of several gas groups together.....closing down my hearing just as we were trying to get clarification on the "fumes actually entering a building"......
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Plasto on November 06, 2015, 07:57:21 AM
Ok so you were claiming compliance of an Install in NZ based on using a British Standard in place of the current NZ Standard at the time??

Was there a difference in the clearances permissible in the British Standard when compared to the  NZ standard in place when the work was done???

What appliance was it an Infinity/ Integrity style water heater??
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 06, 2015, 08:30:14 PM
I am claiming, and I know for sure, that the fumes were never entering the building and never did....and the hearing was shut down by a conflicted chair, so that the conflicted chair's mate, the so called "impartial" investigator didn't have to answer the FACT that the fumes were never a problem.

It was a Bosch califont with a fan forced flue, just like a infinity/integrity, please look at the British Standard for measurements.


Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 07, 2015, 10:45:21 AM
Hi guys, badger what about acceptable solutions that we can apply to plumbing regs,cheers
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 07, 2015, 11:12:02 AM
Acceptable solutions apply to gasfitting too mate


Part 2 of NZS 5261 gives one way of complying with Part 1, but other ways of complying with part 1 can be used. Relevant Australian or British standards may be used if the gasfitter can demonstrate compliance with NZS 5261, Part1

So the main part is part one, if Part one is served then its ok.....but at my hearing just as we were questioning the investigator, his mate shut it down.

The thing is the regs aren't worth the paper they are written on if they are applied in a slanted way with a desired outcome to set someone up.

No matter what you write in a book, it doesn't change the laws of physic's.
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 07, 2015, 12:27:13 PM
If hot flue gases are propelled away from the building, at a considerable force, they will travel horizontally until they loose momentum, they will then, and only then, rise...away from the building and any window on that building....just as I said at the hearing.....I even drew a diagram.

Out of interest Plasto, Answer me this..... how can a mechanically powered "inlet" be nearer to a flue than an opening window? (even allowing for a un-fanned flue, where the fumes would rise just like cigarette smoke, just as I said at my hearing, up the wall, close in, as it lacks the propulsion of the fan forced).....

Table 16 in NZ 5261 even emphasises a spa blower, which is a bit misleading because as far as external fumes are concerned it is a sucker not a blower. They suck at a rate measured in cubic meters per minuet, seven from memory.....from outside to inside.

So this acceptable solution allows for a vacuum type vent positioned above a source of fumes, sucking from outside, to inside...which then places the fumes literally right under the nose of the person in the spa bath....in one of the traditionally smallest rooms in the home, where in all likelihood the room would be full of steam, from the water being heated by the califont outside, you know the same califont that is filling the spa bath.....this could be a balanced flue, like the Bosch water wizard type, with no fan...... the guy who was investigating me helped write this table.

Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 07, 2015, 12:33:08 PM
If part one is achieved it doesn't matter how you achieve it.....because part two is NON mandatory....the only part that has to be done is part one....


It would be a lot easier if they just said.....you do it like this..... and that is it, there is no other way.....none of this non mandatory and acceptable solutions, but they don't.....

I asked why they did this.....the answer was....just in case you get a job where the part two can't be used....so you can use other ways to achieve an outcome for the customer.....which is exactly what I did....



Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 07, 2015, 11:48:32 PM
Here you are....have a read of the hearing, but bear in mind the investigation, since April 2009, the hearing in May 2011, over two years of bullshit....and abuse...and character assassination....


.........and when I get to question them on their "take" on matters....its shut down.....



Its a long read.....but the two years before were even longer.....
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 07, 2015, 11:50:43 PM
I have tried to fix this since 2002.........

How much endurance do you have?
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 08, 2015, 12:19:05 AM
Hammond says....... I don't have any knowledge of whether products of combustion are in fact entering or not. I have not carried out any tests to demonstrate. I am unaware of any tests that have been carried out to demonstrate that.

MR PARKER: Well I think we have reached the point where we are having submissions, so I think we can adjourn now.

SHUT DOWN....BY HIS MATE.......

Imagine losing your business and reputation in this manner with your wife abused and threatened with material like this attached.....please don't open if child sexual abuse offends.....


I think I am more than justified to nut off....
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 13, 2015, 02:19:47 PM
Black is Wal, my representative.....

Hammond is Blue, the PGDB investigator.....

Red is Parker the chair.....and long time colleague of Hammond. Both on the secretariat for GANZ for many years and members of NZIGE....REMEMBER Darnley was also a member of NZIGE, and lots of other gas groups, just like GANZ.....

Hammond was the president of GANZ in 1994, and at that point had 12 years with GANZ.......2003 Hammond and Parker are on the secretariat together and the Kennedy trust together and were for many years.....they told untruths about this in legal signed documents, signed affidavits....

I complained about all of this and was told I had to give Hammond and Parker a chance to act egregiously......when they did, I could do nothing.......

Darnley, not even an apprenticeship served, but goes under the guise of an engineer as a member of NZIGE..... resigned from NZIGE weeks after the explosion, and was granted a full certifying gas fitters license after just one oral exam way back in 1998....I am told only about 10 people ever got a license like this.....it cost me thousands and hours, days and weeks to get mine....and I had a f****in apprenticeship under my belt......just like loads of other guys just like me....

This is taken from the end of the transcript, the last day just before it was ended after a 2 and a half years of being terrorised by these goons, and a 3 day grilling at the hearing, my business was gone and I left to work away for two years days later......please see below......


Q. That's fine. Now, the second thing I have just to clarify and you're talking about Part 1 and Part 2 of the Act. Now Part 1 is what must be done, what you must comply with?

A. Part 1 is the mandatory requirement.

Q. Mandatory requirement, yes, and Part 2 is a way of compliance?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, the reason I was asking about that, because on page 35 of the edition I have here, 1.5.7, it meanings about flue terminals and in the second paragraph of that section it reads: "Flue terminals shall be located to minimise entry of combustion products into any building and to minimise the effects of adverse draft on the performance of the gas appliances". So in reading that, if there's no gas entering into a building, then it complies with Part 1?

A. Yes, the aim of that is to make sure that gas does not enter into the building.

Q. So that's the aim of it, so if there is no gas, say in this case we've got two situations where people are saying there's no gas entering, then according to that paragraph then it complies with Part 1 of the Act?

A. No, I don't rely on consumers whether the gas was entering or not, it is the gas fitter's job to locate it in such a way that gas does not enter the building.

Q. But that's what it's saying here though isn't it, it's saying that if the flues aren't entering the building then it complies with Part 1?

A. Yes, but -

Q. And if the customers are saying fumes aren't entering the building then it's compliant with Part 1?

A. But in order to ensure that under all conditions products of combustion do not enter into the premises, then one way of complying is to ensure that the clearances are in accordance with Part 2. If you are putting in an appliance with clearances other than those in Part 2, then you need to demonstrate how the - how you have ensured that under all conditions the products of combustion can't enter the property.

Q. That doesn't say "in all conditions" there. Does it say in here "all conditions"?

A. No it doesn't say all conditions, but that's surely a general inference from the requirements of the standard to meet all conditions.

Q. Well an inference is fine, but as per it says here the - that's located to minimise entry of combustion products and to minimise the effects of adverse draft et cetera. So those - if there's no fumes entering those two locations that we've been talking about, then they're actually compliant with the mandatory part of the NSZ 5261?

A. I don't have any knowledge of whether products of combustion are in fact entering or not. I have not carried out any tests to demonstrate. I am unaware of any tests that have been carried out to demonstrate that.


MR PARKER: Well I think we have reached the point where we are having submissions, so I think we can adjourn now.




You had to be there to witness the atmosphere.......but its ok his mate came to the rescue.....this was never a quest for truth, but a targeted attack......





This is for the last charge.....1 out of 44.......95 % innocent....would have been 100% if we could have pursued this......but its their game on their pitch and when they want to take their ball home they will....especially if they are loosing.....



Remember they boasted of a 100% conviction rate before this.....


Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 13, 2015, 04:37:10 PM
Hi Badger, OK the point was adjourned and the point never pursued so was never completed so you could never have been guilty of the charge, end of. So how did you ever accept the verdict? If it was me I would have made them verify the point of the charge or drop it, cheers
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 13, 2015, 05:25:24 PM
I have tried every single way I could, I have gone to the, Master Plumbers, The Ombudsman, The Auditor General, Community law, the PGDB, MP's, and the High Court.....at every step I have been ignored and shut down or passed along. The Federation are the only people to have helped me.

I did nothing wrong, at all....I tried to warn about it for 6 years that something like this could happen, i.e. an incident with dodgy certs covering dangerous work installed by someone who had more "contacts" than common sense, training or ethics all lumped together.

And I have paid for his mistakes.

IF....big if.....and the PGDB did not, and never have to this day, said that I had exonerated myself and proven I knew what I was doing, and then went after the real culprit, with my life intact....then I could have lived with it....I could have carried on......but they went in my local paper, used their public weigh and went after me even after this kangaroo court....


Robbo mate, at my assessment, I could not find the course of instruction as the Board said I needed, because it did not exist.......I learned nothing new....and just being assessed I passed with flying colours, the assessor said I would be in the top 10% of fitters he had met.....(and he knew his stuff)

Yet still I got f**** all, I lost my business and my trade.....I got no work and I am working in another industry where I am reminded daily that I am new and made to feel like an apprentice.....


I am a bit peeved mate....





Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: robbo on November 13, 2015, 05:40:44 PM
Ok Badger you did nothing wrong and I agree so what did they(and don't forget they were only a kangaroo court)assume you were guilty of and how did they make it stick,cheers mate
Title: Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
Post by: Badger on November 13, 2015, 06:03:24 PM
These people below were the Chair of my hearing and the so called "impartial" investigator, these quotes are taken from their own press releases....



Stephen Parker, Executive Director of the Gas Association of New Zealand since 1998.....taken from the press release from the PGDB news letter of March 2009, the explosion happened in April 2009....have a read too of the article in this newsletter By Tony Hammond and his take on re-certing an install and any chages to that install.....

the explosion happened weeks after this newsletter, the pipe work in the PGDB OWN WORDS WAS ALTERED...oh and the explosion was caused by a hose rupturing that was sold weeks after I left....and the pizza cert that the PDGB claim was never received by them, but a copy appears on their website and all the carbon copies show missing leak test info.

Tony Hammond wrote that he had been involved with GANZ for 12 years when he made the President in 1994.....in the other paper on "deregulation" and heaps praise on the self cert system that he lobbied for (the self cert system being the worst mistake of the gasfitting industry ever, in my opinion).....read the last page with Hammonds history....I also have a signed affidavit from Hammond saying he worked to get the self cert system brought in....

AT MY IMPARIALITY HEARING AND THE ACTUAL HEARING THEY DENIED BEING TOO FAMILIAR WITH EACH OTHER.....AND THAT Hammond WAS IMPARTIAL.....ignoring the fact that he had shown the short comings of the self cert system, that he lobbied for.....by Hammond himself granting a full craftsman license to a guy who did one oral exam and no apprenticeship....I think he had heaps to be partial to.....




The only thing the "got" on me was the califont installation....that's it out of 44 charges.....



I lost everything.....