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I am absolutely discusted at the PGDB in regards to Exams.
I sat my common paper in Nov 08 and was confident going into it.
I got 54% originally, then 56% on the reconsideration.
There are marks I should have got but no one I can dispute it with.
There are no standard answers available, no one to help, and no examiners report in a long time.
I thought we paid these fees for them to help us, not to be against us.
I currently live in WA, and I travel back to NZ for each exam. There are loads of people who put so much time and effort and money to these exams. But we get nothing in return
I just want a bit more support from the PGDB, or they may as well piss off! I'm surprised more plumbers aren't standing up to this.
I also believe there is a discrepancy in the allocation of questions in the exams.
Anyway, good to get that off my mind. Back to study now!
KC
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"for anyone to question (and i use this phrase loosley) the PGDB", an organisation such as this one can help. If we can get more people to join this particular web site/organisation the better. If more people are associated with this web site and even more so than the Master plumbers and gas then the board would have to recognise this due to pure numbers. Then and only then will our voices be heard.... as the board would have no choice but to listen.
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Mate if your living in WA why are you wasting your time doing exams in NZ get a WA licence or do the course in WA they have to accept in NZ.
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I'm definately doing my gas over here.
There is are different courses you can do. If you have NZ reg. You get to do shorter courses.
And there is no constant upskilling. Once you've got it thats it!
For the Business paper, If I fail this time around, I will just do it here in perth.
The courses full up pretty fast though.
It's great because they want to pass you and they help you in your week points.
Trust me, there are some stupid and totally irrellavent questions in the business exam.
I read a good article lately. Check it out
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/2387336/Tough-test-drains-plumbers-brains (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/2387336/Tough-test-drains-plumbers-brains)
One way or another I'll get it.....
Back to study for me now,
I need to learn the obligations and then the duties of a quantity surveyor....
Go figure
KC
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one of my mates is scottish....i know bad luck ....he spent quite a few years in australia and obtained his Australian Equavilent to be a Plumber in NZ. he says he dosent have to re liscence every year as he has this ticket...is he correct, is there a ticket you can get that enables a life time liscence, or is he really Irish? ;D
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That depends on what he has been licensed for.
If he has tradesmans license, thats equivalent to being a registered plumber/drainlayer.
If he was to move to NZ, he'd have to have a current oz license and then get a recipricol licence (annually) from the PGDB.
If he has Contrators license, then thats all he has to do (be current in both countries).
Gas is a little different.
Remember, he must have business and plumbing for contractors (craftsman) license
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nice thanks for that, i thought it was to good to be true....
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Hi Chris, I agree with you about no one to take your concerns to regarding no higher authority with the exam results but I have wondered about taking it to the Disputes Tribunal at the local district court - a bit hard from Aussie but you can tele conference. The "BOARD' do seem to have their heads up somewhere the sun don't shine. Cheers.
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Yeah, I agree. I think the board and the whole way everything is organised is so unproffessional.
I think the best avenue is through the master plumbers assn.
I'm not just b****ing and moaning for the sake of it. The set up is a disgrace.
I tell ya what. I'll be taking things in my own hands if required when I'm in business back in NZ, Hopefully soon.
I recognise the need for high standards, qualifications, unision, competance etc etc in plumbing and in all trades.
But we get almost no help from the PGDB. They are pathetic.
If I was in charge, I'd make number one priority in asssisting and helping Plumbers Gasfitters etc..... regarding exams and knowledge . They are just not helpful.
It seems they have something to hide.
No examiners report for three years!!
No report on how many marks were appointed
I think they are trying to hide something!
I'll get this exam over with and then sort this mess out. And trust me I will.
KC
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hi,you do realise that the Board states that it is not there for us plumbers/gasfitters or drainlayers, it is there to protect the health and safety of consumers against us tradesmen.i believe that the health and safety of consumers is in grave danger of the Board driving good tradesmen out of the trade and leaving it to the cowboys, check out the boards web site and see how many of us are no longer licenced!
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Hey robbo
Brilliant, I like it.
I'm going to look into this.
This is the bullshit that's happening in our society.
I'm actually in the process of looking at who and why the PGDB are in service.
I'm looking at starting one of my own and getting authority to do so.
I'll have support of most plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers out there......... Also most of the tutors and training boards. ..... probably most TA and building authorities...
There's no reason we can not make a stand.
Just need some time and support
KC
PS...
Plumber... Set up a web site (seperate to this, but linked)
We need to focus on this issue.
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hi kiwi chris,and all, glad someone was game enough to reply to mine. i do believe that we have the numbers to change things because every one in our trades that i talk to seems to agree,its just that we need to be organised and together. i personally have sent e-mails to quite a few M.P.s and have had replys,just thanking me for the info,quoting b.s. and generally ignoring me,but if it was kept up they would soon have to do something. just imagine if all us tradesmen went sick for just one week at the same time,thats not what i am proposing but we must have clout to do something.
Setting up a web site is a good idea is it that difficult?
I recon that if we all sent a well versed letter to the relavent M.P.s (i mean all send the same letter) thay would have to do something,i.e. look into the 'Board' and scrap/modify/limit/alter the complete workings of,they could even use the Health and Safety`s catchwords of: Eliminate/Minimise/Isolate seeing as they love health and safety so much, not that i am opposed to health and safety,but to nail our arses to the ground in the name of,absolutely wrong.
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hi guys the pgdb are arse 's and couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery,anyway the good news is that the main arse phill routhan could be on his way out we just need to keep applying the pressure please write into plumbers journal and complain also we need plumbers bumper stickers so as to get out our message to the plumbers who have no balls and let every one do the work to make things better jd
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Yep and then one rouge Craftsman Gasfitter from Auckland area goes and stuffs up all the work the good tradesmen in this country do and justifies the very existence of the PGDB. We need to stand up and be counted and not "work the system" wrongly. Craftsmen gasfitters who sell certs to limited certificate gasfitters without supervision or testing have probably taken the reputation of good gasfitters back a long way. Now we will all be viewed with suspicion by the public who will think we are trying to rip them off - or do a poor job.
It's these sort of guys who make the PGDB a necessary thing. If we regulated our own industry and dobbed in the cowboys or at the very least bought some peer pressure on our colleagues who are doing a poor job then the PGDB would have no one to prosecute.
Unfortunately - while no fan of the PGDB punitive approach - sometimes our own trades people are the ones who are not "professional" and let us all down!
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JOHN DYER-PLUMBER/GAS ENGINEER
FOR BETTER PLUMBING IN NEWZEALAND & GAS SAFETY
Dear Sir or Madam:
I have worked in the plumbing and gas trade in NewZealand for just under 2 years and have found it to be eye opening as to the poor training and development in proper training .Any way I started with Merwood plumbing (laser plumbing) in Taupo doing mainly maintenance plumbing and problem solving which I started to get a good name for being an expert ,whilst working for Dave Merwood I worked on my own from day 1 on wards and received no direct or indirect supervision at All.whilst working for him I found some of quality of his work to be of a lower standard than some of my apprentices I used to train so I moved on to work with gas at Macbeth Plumbing of Taupo as a plumber and gas engineer servicing and maintaining gas appliances cookers/ gas fires boilers etc ,whilst doing this I found boilers connected to gas supplys with flexible bath pipes,lpg gas bottles fitted over drains,and lots of other faults that would be illegal installations in most modern countrys of course.
The main part of my job was to be their gas expert in servicing and repairs and trouble shooting during this time I came across several unsafe and dangerous installations for example a gas fire that was poorly fitted to the wrong flue so when I went to service it I found signs of spillage and also then I went on to test for spillage with a smoke match which is called spillage test( incase you don’t understand, how to do this please feel free to call me)after finding this I decided to warn the people of Taupo of the dangers of not servicing gas appliances every 12mths (this should be your job if you were doing your job properly)we suddenly got lots of work which is good for safety
Anyway the person doing most of the gas installations turned out to be trainee still in training who when asked said that when they install gas fires they never tested for spillage,when. he went on day realease I was asked to go and find a gas leak on a new installation he did which turned out to be a cracked pipe behind the fire if I had fitted the fire I would have tested it before fitting the flue ( its called a soundness test please call if you don’t understand).
They also had a licensed plumber who fitted taps into the soap dish holders (drilled in the centre of soap dish)
Plumbers who left numberous leaks
And all plumbers were trainees (5 and an office manager who goes out to work as well)
And of course it was in my contract,that he would pay all of your licenses which he didn’t of course, gas /plumbing
The good news is when I was doing all this gas work (no license) and never any supervision for all of us licenced plumbers.
So the moral of this story is. is it any wonder that the standard of plumbing and gas is poor in NewZealand and the trainees fail exams because they don’t get any help from craftsman or supervision.
iT is good to see that the plumbers board is still being run poorly, is this because they failed to get rid of the useless dead wood left over from the last sacking
the plumbers board (or should I say money pit) is planning to put up fees again i can hear them saying that this is good for plumbing I doult it but it will good for the boys or should I say registar I cant imagine a poorly paid plumber wanting to pay $3k + to a board that undermines plumbing and are employers going to pay them more to cover this
Also please see my jds corner in the plumbers jounal and also see the storey about gas accidents in 2008 and also theres work in gas appliance servicing on page 23&32 aug/sept issue
Thank you john dyer gas engineer plumbing expert
073774141
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hi,this is a letter that i sent to the board after getting their memo on that gasfitter up north, i also sent it to the minister of building.
Dear Sir, The practices that you have outlined have been going on for years. Most Gasfitting work is carried out by registered tradesmen but not all gasfitters, with no or very little supervision. I`ve worked for companies who have not had craftsman gasfitters except for the boss who has not supervised or inspected the work but has filled in the certification forms, this still happens. I as a craftsman gasfitter left the certification to the boss as do other craftsmen that are not willing to take the long term responsibility of installations being just waged workers. I also know of craftsman gasfitters who have sold gas certificates to other installers because it is lucrative, very foolish I know but any system will be abused by somebody, the only way to stop it is to change it.
I believe that craftsman status should be discontinued with registration being the highest level of qualification. I also believe that self certification should be discontinued with gas inspectors re-introduced who would be part of the district council operation. Most companies charge $120.00 or more for a $25.00 certificate purchased from the pgd.board, plus $75.00 per hr for gasfitting work because this work has become exclusive since the introduction of self certification. Dropping craftsman status and self certification also introducing gas inspectors would make the industry more affordable giving scope for paid gas inspectors, safer work and remove the selling of certificates to unqualified installers.
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PLUMBERS BOARD Boss suspended for inquiry
By DAVE BURGESS - The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 21/10/2009
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The chief executive of the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, Phillip Routhan, has been suspended on full pay while being investigated for potentially serious misconduct – and has been ordered to return official board documents.
The information is contained in a ruling from the Employment Relations Authority obtained by The Dominion Post.
The board went to the authority asking it to make Mr Routhan and his legal representative, Chapman Tripp, return official files and documents that he had taken to his home.
Mr Routhan told the authority that either he or Chapman Tripp had the papers, which included personnel files relating to other board staff.
He said they highlighted several problems within the board, including apparent systemic gasfitting certification failures and substantial failures by board employees.
An interim authority ruling was made on September 18 requiring Mr Routhan and Chapman Tripp to return all files, including computer files, to the board.
The authority said in its ruling that "it would be profoundly inequitable ... to condone Mr Routhan's unauthorised removal of company property by acceding to his argument that their return would somehow disclose the nature of the legal advice he has sought and been provided".
Mr Routhan could not be contacted for comment but he told the authority that since July last year he had been subjected to a sustained campaign by members of the present board to undermine him in his role.
Chapman Tripp and board chairwoman Hazel Armstrong did not return messages asking for comment.
The Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, which is industry-driven with a focus on consumer health and safety, is a statutory board established under the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Act.
Its registration and licensing functions are totally funded by revenue from licence and gas certification fees.
Mr Routhan was board chairman in 2006 when the deputy prime minister at the time, Michael Cullen, sacked the entire board.
Dr Cullen's move came after an internal review, and intense select committee scrutiny over an Australian training package that was introduced but found to be outside the board's statutory role.
Mr Routhan was later elected registrar and chief executive of the board.
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NOW IT IS TIME TO TELL YOUR FELLOW PLUMBERS TO STOP PAYING THE BOARD FOR NOTHING. kiwigas.engineers@yahoo.com
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Well look at this, our beloved board in tatters.
My initial post of "Get rid of the Board" seems well overdue. I hope all you dissbelievers will now get in behind a move to send a strong message to the Govt to rid our trades of total wankers and do some hard thinking of how we can rescue the whole plumbing/gasfitting industry, to get proper training for apprentices/meaninfull exam papers that reflect normal practices and regain tradesmens confidence. You can see from this article that j.D. has put in from todays Dominium Post and read on national news, that the board has been using us as a cash cow for far to long when they seem to only be fethering thier own nests. It seems the other members of the board have been unhappy with the chief executive just as we have. I am personally going to e-mail the Dominion posts write-up to my local mp plus to the minister of building and urge you all to do the same, one to your local Mp and also the minister of building(maurice williamson) if he gets a heap of e-mails all saying the same thing he has to take notice. i had another letter from the board on friday reminding me that i had`ent renewed my gas licence that is the second letter saying the same thing, thats after a phone call from them asking the same thing,i told them that i had given up gas fitting because it had got to stressfull and expensive to go through all the b.s. They must really be down on relicence fees, if you look at the pgdb website under search the register you can see why.
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History is littered with disasters engineered by leaders who exercise their own agendas with rank disregard for common sense or fairness to others, leading to results that totally cripple the intended aim; some of these disasters are never recovered from, our industry may well be one of those disasters.
Many tradesmen in our industry have left the trade and others are looking to other less stressful ways of earning a living, it is probably a good time for new initiatives and thinking as a start to rebuilding an industry that had run smoothly for many years, whether encouragement into the industry can be attained is another matter. With non sencicle training of apprentices, crippling costs and expenses, linked with near total failure of prescribed trade tests and exams, the ability to attract new workers is at best doubtful; personally I would not advise anyone into the trade.
With a good deal of basic training and sound knowledge of standard systems, materials, regulations, that are used in the industry, the trades of plumbing, gasfitting, drainlaying are not that difficult, in fact the industry has become easier with the introduction of plastic based materials and simpler ways of pipe jointing etc.
There have been some very bad examples of workmanship carried out in the past by untrained handy people that have had dire consequences, that will never change and has nothing to with tradesmen who have come through a properly prescribed training regime. No amount of rules and regulations will stop handymen from having a go at D.I.Y.
The PGD board has made our industry subdued and an unhappy one to be in at the moment and in my opinion needs removing, does the industry need a board? It has not proved to be helpful and advantageous for what it is supposed to stand for, a properly trained industry does not need group of people who use stand over tactics to justify their own existence. The industry is in dire need of sensible training initiatives without outrageous costs and expectations of trainees. I hope someone in higher office can inject common sense answers to an over problematic state of affairs that is the plumbing, gasfitting, drainlaying industry.
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hi guys, jax may want to see this.
Gasfitter in clear over false-certificate claims By Jared Savage A police inquiry into an experienced gasfitter who was accused of signing hundreds of bogus safety certificates has cleared him of any wrongdoing. The Weekend Herald revealed in September that hundreds of homes and businesses had been fitted with potentially illegal and dangerous gas connections which authorities say could put people at risk of fire or poisoning. Police and Government authorities began investigating nearly 400 blank safety certificates that appeared to be signed by a craftsman gasfitter, then sold to up to eight unqualified tradesmen who carried out work in Auckland and Northland. The sales went on for nearly three years until a homeowner noticed her gas certificate looked bogus and laid a complaint with the government licensing body, the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drain layers Board, in July. However, criminal charges will not be laid against the gasfitter at the centre of the inquiry. It now appears as though the safety certificates were able to be FALSIFIED BECAUSE OF A LOOPHOLE LEFT OPEN BY THE GASFITTERS BOARD. Police spokeswoman Noreen Hegarty said the investigation was finished and there was insufficient evidence pointing to any criminal activity. One of the factors considered by police was the large time delay between the time of installation of fittings and the audit dates - in some cases three years - during which time any number of people could have had access to fittings and gas installation. Some fittings failures were beyond the certifier's control, said Ms Hegarty."For example, after installing and certifying a wall-mounted gas water heater at a property, a builder at the site later installed a vent beside the gas water heater, causing the gas fitter's job to fail a compliance test," she said.Ms Hegarty pointed out that - prior to very recent changes to the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drain layers website - anyone could purchase a book of gas certificates and use someone else's name. All details needed to complete a gas safety certificate are available online, as the man at the centre of the inquiry is listed as a craftsman gasfitter with his registration number. Anyone could buy a booklet of certificates from the board, fill in the gasfitter's details, and then forge his signature. The craftsman gasfitter, 72, welcomed the exoneration by police but declined to comment further. The embarrassing loophole has since been closed by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drain layers Board but chairman Kern U'ren did not return phone calls yesterday. An audit of more than 370 commercial premises and private homes found more than 90 per cent failed to meet compliance tests, with 16 found to be dangerous or unsafe. At the time, gas investigator John DeBernardo said the blank certificates were a small fraction of the 100,000 issued during the three-year period. WHILE MOST WERE TECHNICAL BREACHES AND THE NUMBER OF POTENTIALLY LETHAL GAS LEAKS WERE SMALL, he urged anyone with information to come forward.
Funny what you can find on the net. i think that the board should have informed us of this (in a memo) as well as the other one that they sent telling us of the problem in the first place.
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Hi Robbo - well that little story made my day!! As you say we won't see any public retraction from the PGDB telling us that half the problem was theirs!! It's also interesting as this is the example that Maurice Williamson used at the Master Plumber's Conference for why we need CBL and also that this industry needed to clean itself up. The Board have also cited it as an example of why the disciplinary levy needed to go up as major investigations like the Auckland one cost a lot of money. We had a similar issue with a water heater we installed over 12 months ago on LPG with a heat pump installer coming some 8 months after us and putting the outdoor compressor right next to the LPG bottles. We got audited and were told it was a technical fail, despite the homeowner telling the auditor that the Infinity was put in a year ago and the heat pump only two months ago. It took a strongly worded letter to both Energy Safety and the PGDB before everyone agreed it was a nonsense and no "fail audit" invoice was issued. Thanks for posting that Robbo! I'll bet there is some red faces at the PGDB.