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Have any of you had problems with the Gas Control Valve on Rinnai Infinities using LPG sticking and needing to be replaced. We've done a few of these lately and of course they aren't under warranty as it is oil and residue from the actual gas. Never have a problem with NG one's. I'm trying to gauge whether it is a localised problem on more country wide. If country wide then the LPG people need to sit up and do something about the quality of the gas because at the end of the day the consumer is having to pay to have these replaced (in some cases two in one year).
Love to hear from others at the coal face if they are seeing this in their region.
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hi guys, Jax, never had that problem myself as i do not service the units only install. The oil apparently comes from the compressors that fill the L.P.G. cylinders a sort of `misting 'we sometimes come across that yellow oil in older installations, don't know what the gas companies can do about it, cheers
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Not that i have ever seen much in them, if installed at all,
but perhaps a drain leg to catch condensate/oils and waxes may be the way to go...
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yes Jaxcat, i come across them from time to time, i have one sitting on my bench as we speak that is sticking, i have mostly had lpg ones do this but i have had ng ones fail.
And yes i think most of these failures are from poor quality lpg, some installations that the owners try and use 9kg bottles on when they have run out of 45kg seams to be common, and the 9kg have alsorts of crap in them, ask trevor at rinnai.
regards
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Thanks everyone, yes we've been talking to Rinnai - and the LPG companies, who of course say they have never had anyone saying anything to them about this (yeah right). None of this helps our customers, doesn't help Rinnai either - bit of a catch 22 situation. Warranty to part doesn't apply as it is not the LPG retailers would come to the party - but not going to hold my breath there.
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Hi Jaxcat
Have just done two of these in the last week 1 on a unit that is only 18 months old and the owner is spitting chips.
Rinnai will be aware of the problem as I gave him the phone number and I heard him going of to whoever it was that answered LOL
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hi guys, you should have a condense trap to catch all that stuff and even if you have i would think that it would stuff the regulator before it effected any other parts, just my thoughts, cheers
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Hi Jaxcat and others
This has been a problem for some time and has been addressed by the GANZ and the LPGA. This is not just isolated to gasfitting it is also causing major issues in the automotive industry.
According to the LPG Association, approximately seven years ago there were quite a few problems with ‘waxing and oiling’ of gas regulators and systems. An investigation identified contamination of the gas from phthalates extracted from the rubber pigtail hoses connecting bottles to the regulator. Because of this the LPG Association put out a recommendation to suppliers that hoses should have a phthalate content of less than two per cent. This is located under section 2 of the LPGA COP No 2 Installation and maintenance of twin 45kg LPG cylinder systems.
I personally am of the opinion that this issue is one of three specific issues:
1. The quality of the LPG mix
2. The use of equipment where plasticisers mainly DOP (DiOctyl Phtalates) predominantly found in hose
inner liners exceeding the 2% threshold, and
3. Poor gas pipework installation with no graded pipework to a condensate drain which generally consists of a tee with with a capped base.
Hope this assists but it certainly isn't a new issue.
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hi guys,(approximately seven years ago there were quite a few problems with ‘waxing and oiling’ of gas regulators and systems). Perhaps this was good information that the `Board 'could have passed on when you were part of it,cheers
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Yes fully aware this is not a new issue, but it seems to have increased again just of late, so I'm picking it's the mix of LPG. The problem I have is customers who have purchased new Infinities and are having to pay for a new gas control valve after only a few months, or replace one within a year of purchasing one. This item is excluded from the warranty as Rinnai have no control over the gas. We are service agents and the jobs we have been called to are installed correctly - this is not the issue.
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Hi
This problem exhibits itself in gas heaters as well. Usually in those it is a thin film on valve seats that glues up over the summer period of not being used. A firm but gentle tap to the side of the valve usually sorts it out. Problem with water heaters is that the gas use is much higher than space heaters generally. So the gas velocities are also higher and much more opportunity to drag heavy ends out of the system and into the water heaters. They are also often closer to the bottles when mounted externally.
Can exhibit early symptoms in water heaters of fluctuating temperatures and difficulty for a gasfitter in setting and holding the minimum gas pressure in the commissioning process. Often by the time the problem gets picked up the oil has damaged the diaphragm of the proportional valve (the servo actuated adjusting pressure regulator in the gas valve).
I have extreme doubts that this is coming from phthalates in a particular customers individual installation. I have seen sufficient in some instances where the individual customer would not have had any hose left. This view is advanced by gas suppliers as it supports an "its not out fault" argument. It is not directly related to the ratio of Propane/Butane mix.
My understanding is that this issue is seen in large commercial installations where the customer has no such hoses and issues are greater because again velocities are much higher. Commercial customers can spend the money for specific oil removal systems where this isnt an option for domestic installations.
My belief is that the material builds up throughout the distribution system over time from all sorts of sources. The cure would be for 45 kg cylinders to be regularly completely emptied, inverted and drained/cleaned. My understanding is this happens rarely if ever.
Couple of suggestions:
1. The gas is not fit for purpose. There is no way the oil in the appliance has come from the customer's hoses that has the problem with the water heater. The fact that the gas supplier wants to claim it has got into the bottle from other customers with similar hoses is the problem of the gas supplier - not the customer. I expect any 45 kg cylinder other than a new one if inverted would have more oil come out of it than could possibly come from a single set of hoses.
Get the customer on the phone to the gas supplier and as far up the chain as they can get and have them on the phone work their way through "gas not fit for purpose" followed by the list of; disputes tribunal; fair go; MOBIE; Gas Industry Company; until the gas supplier blinks and pays up which in my experience they will.
Its a bit tough having a crack at the appliance supplier as it is a gas fired appliance not an oil fired one.
2. When you are installing LPG twinpack regulators make sure that you follow the code of practice and install a condensate drip leg. Try to get the customer to agree to regular service visits to drain. The challenge is that if they dont then at some point this really big reservoir of oil is likely to make the problem worse as it will potentially get picked up once the leg is full. Problem for a gasfitter is that if you dont install the traps in the first place then you could find yourself on the receiving end of the customer call when the gas company says no drip leg so not our fault.
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Bingo Grant - absolutely agree with everything you have said. I don't think anyone is having a go at the appliance manufacturer - it is clearly not their problem at all, but individually gasfitters complaining is like farting into the wind - that is why if we pass on the information so Rinnai can collate and present we may stand a better chance for our customers. Sure we have advised our customers to talk to their energy company, but remember they are not gasfitters and get bullshitted with science - our best bet is as a collective - and whether this is spearheaded by gasfitters and followed up by Rinnai, or spearheaded by Rinnai and followed up by gasfitters - we need to do something other than leave our customers paying and paying and paying for something that is out of their control.
Thanks for concisely explaining the issues - excellent stuff!
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We install Integrity water heaters all the time and have never had an issue like this. Is it isolated to Infinity water heaters
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Talking to Dave Waite at Rheem and Ray Mills at Bosch they get them the same as Rinnai do. As they have smaller numbers in the field I suspect it is just a probability issue as to how many of each you might see.
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Thanks Grant. I'll just hope my luck holds.
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hi guys, just had to replace a Gas Regulator that was leaking. Seems like oil has caused the leak as quite a lot of oil has been recovered from the drain point and the valve is full of it. Customer has talked to `Rock Gas 'the supplier who has been to the site and is investigating, for a start they are supplying another 45kg bottle to replace lost gas but apart from that it`s a wait and see, cheers
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hi guys just a follow up, met rep for `Rock Gas 'on site where he stated that the oil had come from the breakdown of the flexible pig tails, (as a matter of interest Hydroflow put out a regulator with stainless pigtails but after gas company would not change cylinders unless they were changed to rubber ones) anyway he went on to say they do not get oil into gas bottles although he did state that approx 20ltrs of oil is removed about every 2 months at the filling station. So i have now been on to Àber` who supply the reg and hoses who say there is no way that the oil is from their hoses and have agreed to test the reg (which is full of oil) and hoses by way of being sent back through the supplier `Mico Wakefield 'resulting report to follow, cheers
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And follow up from me too - interesting can of worms has been opened. Rinnai are now going to collect data about this problem - so if you go to an Infinity and have this experience send the data through to Rinnai (Taf Davies - CSM). Rheem and Bosch may or may not have a similar problem, but if you fix their gear and experience the same problem send them through some hard data as well.
Rinnai would love the Gas Control Valve, the serial number of the unit and the name and address of the customer.
I think no one quite knows the extent of the problem as we simply replace the part, bill the customer and get on with it.
Also talking to On Gas - their technical manager is adamant that all gasfitters should be telling clients that BOTH bottles should be turned on together - not one off and the other on. He feels that this is causing problems and their drivers are instructed not to turn on only one bottle.
Do you all tell your clients to leave both bottles on? Of course we can do that, but if the customer goes out after we've gone, or the delivery guy turns only one on then it makes a mockery of what we do. Still be interested to hear what you tell your clients?
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Does anyone happen to know if any of the LPG retailers offer monthly rental of the regulator/hosetail installation to customers? While this might take a small part of an installation job away from you as an installer it would leave both you and your customer completely in the clear if any oil turns up as the gas retailer is then the owner of the entire supply chain.
Cheers
Grant
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Hi guys, never heard of that, can't think why they would be interested as they do not believe that they have a problem, cheers
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Just had one do the same, gas valve sticking and not opening been in 5 months.
Had Rinnai out and it's been replaced but i'm not sure who is going to foot the bill.
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Foggy - do you mind sending details through to Rinnai - they would want serial number of unit and they also want the control valve back if it can be sent? If you talk to the service agent who came they might send the details through - tell them to send them C/- Taf at Rinnai. Spoke to another gasfitter today who has had three in three weeks. He has talked to Rinnai today and to On Gas.
Really interested to see where this all ends up.
And Grant, they used to rent the autochange over regs etc but that only lasted about two years or so from my recollection - I don't know any LPG supplier that does that now.
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More info from LPG company:
"Regarding inverting and draining cylinders I confirm that this is not something we do unless we are sending a cylinder in for testing or maintenance however we do have full electronic cylinder management in place and we can show that cylinders are fully drained during use but I qualify that by stating that it depends on both cylinders having their valves open allowing them to function correctly with the auto change regulators as designed."
All very interesting...
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hi guys, a follow up on the Gas Regulator that was leaking situation. Had a report from Àber who say it not their reg that is at fault but would not put anything in writing as to who is to blame, this is his report.
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hi guys, if you use these regulators you can see from the report that it states that they are a cheap throwaway item after a period of x years. So you can now tell your customers that after a x number of years they will be up for a $5/6/7/hundred dollar replacement cost to replace these regs. I called the company who sent the report and said that i would have expected them to say that it was the oil in the gas that was the problem and that it was an unknown as to how long the reg would last if not for the oil problem, they answered that with: we are not prepared to put in writing that one of our big customers is to blame for the reg damage, but will say that it is not our hoses that are at fault, cheers
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Did everyone see the newsletter put out by Rinnai today about this very topic? I think a few people on here and out there have been contacting Rinnai about the gas valves - good stuff.
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yip sure did, very interesting
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hi guys, no haven't seen it , can you direct me to the newsletter, cheers