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Evening all, recently I was at a training course where the dodgy certs that where floating around came up in discussion.
As I was told, a few years back someone was selling cert books and the board found out about it( I remember the board emailing everyone to find out who was selling cert books)..
Any way, the blokes I was chatting too said it was Routham the boards registrar at that time who was doing it !!
is this true?
This info came from a source that I believe to be very reliable
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Philip Routhan, who was sacked from his role with the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board last year, made the claim at an Employment Relations Authority meeting yesterday. Mr Routhan is before the authority fighting to get his job back.
He alleged he was asked to lie to Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson about safety problems at the request of board chairwoman Hazel Armstrong, which she denied.
Mr Routhan said he discovered a large number of gas certificates, which must be returned to the board by a certified gasfitter after work is done, were being returned with serious irregularities and were not being followed up.
According to his written evidence, in one case a gasfitter had requested 572 certificates, but an investigation showed only 290 were returned. Forty-four installations were found to have been put in by a person without a licence, with 33 determined to be "high risk".
Six months after becoming aware of the problem, Mr Routhan received a complaint about a gas explosion in a fish and chip shop in Nelson, where the roof had lifted and the front window and rear wall had been blown out. After investigations, more problems were discovered.
A third investigation into another gasfitter revealed 113 illegal installations.
Mr Routhan told the hearing he was making the information public because he was certain someone would be killed. "Somebody is going to die because of this, and I make this statement clearly in public today: somebody is going to get killed because of this."
Mr Routhan also claimed Ms Armstrong asked him not to tell Mr Williamson when he had briefed her about the problems. He said she knew what questions Mr Williamson was going to ask, one of which was when the board had known about the issue, and asked him "not to drop me in the sh*t".
Mr Routhan said he was uncomfortable with lying to a Crown minister, but Mr Williamson did not ask the question.
Ms Armstrong admitted making the request but said it was taken out of context. She said she had only been told in passing on the street and had not realised the seriousness of the situation. "It was not intended to mislead the minister or withhold accurate information from the minister."
The board fired Mr Routhan last year after he took more than 4000 documents from the board office. He said the papers included 761 gas certificates dating from 2005 that proved his claim.
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this is what your probably on about............
But it is the one up North that is a pearler, selling signed certs.......and nothing happened to him.....must have connections!!!!
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what happened to the 760 odd certs that Routhan said proved it was dangerous.......what did they prove, how did they prove???????
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How about this one then....with 12 guests watching.....this guy below got off Scott free.....just months after an explosion
This is the one Bowtie, this is the one that needs looking at.....this guy didn't even get investigated, 5 months after the explosion.....I actually got lumped in with this guy....but he got connections I don't have.....
Last updated 08:52 19/09/2009
Police and safety authorities are investigating an alleged scam where illegal gas connections that could be lethal have been fitted in homes and businesses.
More than 570 blank safety certificates have been signed by a registered gasfitter over the past three years then sold on to unqualified tradesmen who carried out work in Auckland and Northland, The New Zealand Herald reported.
The alleged scam was uncovered when a homeowner last year noticed her gas certificate looked bogus and laid a complaint with the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, which then launched an inquiry and discovered the scale of the alleged offending.
The board audited more than 370 commercial premises and private homes and found more than 90 percent failed to meet compliance tests, with 16 found to be dangerous or unsafe.
Energy Safety, part of the Ministry of Economic Development, and the Department of Labour are also investigating the potentially explosive gas fittings. A complaint has also been laid with police.
Board spokesman John Debernardo said the work had the potential to create danger or pose a health and safety risk.
The internal investigation would be completed in a few weeks and a disciplinary hearing was likely for the gasfitter at the centre of the audit.
Criminal charges were also possible for the man signing the blank certificates and those who paid money for them.
The board is calling on the public to trace the unlicensed work.
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we are up to 15 guests watching, please leave a comment
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You 16 watching......any one with an atom of decency would find this number below, just after an explosion nearly killed some one, a total affront to the trade and would demand a public enquiry..........a quote from below
A third investigation into another gasfitter revealed 113 illegal installations.
WHAT THE f**** IS GOING ON HERE...............
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This needs to be sorted out. Thats my personal opinion. They can rant and rave all they want about safety but when the shit hit the fan they went after the wrong guy. Knowingly to i'd say. They just didnt want to prosecute people directly connected to the board. I wish I could of remembered to bring this up at the meeting Max Pederson attended. Why does the board stay idle? Stinks of corruption.
If I were on the board I would lay down the f**king law that no one is above it the law and investigate whole heartedly what actually happened and who is actually responsible. Now that would restore some god dam trust back into this industry. Look at that I just worked out how the board can gain some traction with the trades people. All they have to do is their job ???
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How do we actually know that no-one was prosecuted. According to the boards annual reports there are a lot of prosecutions, however, there are very few in the public domain. Did these ones go unreported?
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I am pretty sure what happened (as are others).....but to be sure I have put in a OIA request for the action taken.......tell you all in 20 working days.
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From a news paper below
Police and safety authorities are investigating an alleged scam where illegal gas connections that could be lethal have been fitted in homes and businesses.
More than 570 blank safety certificates have been signed by a registered gasfitter over the past three years, then sold on to unqualified tradesmen who carried out work in Auckland and Northland.
The alleged scam was uncovered when a homeowner last year noticed her gas certificate looked bogus and laid a complaint with the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, which then launched an inquiry and discovered the scale of the alleged offending.
The board audited more than 370 commercial premises and private homes and found more than 90% failed to meet compliance tests, with 16 found to be dangerous or unsafe.
Energy Safety, part of the Ministry of Economic Development, and the Department of Labour are also investigating the potentially explosive gas fittings. A complaint has also been laid with police.
Board spokesman John Debernardo says the work has the potential to create danger or pose a health and safety risk.
The internal investigation will be completed in a few weeks and a disciplinary hearing is likely for the gasfitter at the centre of the audit.
Criminal charges are also possible for the man signing the blank certificates and those who paid money for them.
The board is refusing to say who is at the centre of this, but ONE News understands it is a man by the name of Richard Oldfield.
When approached by ONE News, he at first denied signing all of the permits himself, claiming someone has been forging his signature.
Discussing the permits, Oldfield says they come in books of 10.
"I sign the books. That's it, finished, as far as I'm concerned," he says. "But I always inspect the jobs."
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This happened just after the explosion, the Board sent letters to all the sites of my charges.....lumping me in with this........................I have never been to feckin Northland.
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My new concern here Badger, is has Routham got MY certs???, look out if he has, he has stolen info he is not entitled too!
this is just not good enough, i will need to write my letter to max. >:(
wtf !
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The gasfitter that was selling signed gas certificates was, I understand a 72 year old man, who has since (I also understand) handed in his ticket. He was selling them off to a particular section of the population who were then filling them in. I also understand that several of the people who filled them in were not properly licensed gasfitters. From recollection I think some of the gas certificates were still blank and not filled in, and every one of the 290 odd that they found were visited and had various problems with them from minor to major. I do not know who had to pay to rectify these problems, I suspect the members of the public who employed people who were probably cheap and did not check they were qualified. I seriously doubt that the gasfitter visited the jobs, despite his claims. From what I heard he didn't think there was any problem signing off blank certs to gain a few extra bucks.
Routhan did remove files from the PGDB office. I submitted an OIA on behalf of my staff asking if any files mentioning them were removed - and I was told by the Registrar that each member of my staff would need to submit and OIA and ask that question as they would not discuss someone else's information with me. I did toy with the idea of writing 30 odd individual letters and then making the buggers write 30 odd replies back, but it seemed a bit pointless.
I am not sure if the files were recovered and what exactly went missing, but I would assume Mr Routhan had to return all the property as clearly it was not his. If not then the Board have not taken due care of information that it is responsible for holding, and perhaps if anyone was charged with not certifying a job they could rightly claim that perhaps that particular certificate was taken by an ex Board staff member and not returned. That would be a pickle.
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So no prosecution at all Jax? even if....The board audited more than 370 commercial premises and private homes and found more than 90% failed to meet compliance tests, with 16 found to be dangerous or unsafe
And I got steamrollered at the same time?
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I wonder if he had any relatives in the gas industry interest groups, similar groups like Hammond and Darnley.....hmmm, I wonder.......answers on a post card.....
I got made a scapegoat for one mate of the Board, even though I had warned about it for 6 years before, and this level of danger goes under the carpet????
That's fair....where do I send my licence fee again, hell its a donation to keep the public safe I might send twice as much as what they are asking for........as long as I can roll it into a sphincter sized suppository.
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Now read those news articles below, think about the date of these articles, the amount of unsafe work covered and the risk to the public, these articles written just months after the explosion that nearly killed a man, wrecked his business, made me loose my business, home and time with my kids, because of lies told by these clowns at the Board..........and read the bullshit "findings" spewed by these corrupt wankers, see attached......
Now apply what they said about me, to the guy in the articles............
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And this one bullshit charge is blown away by a British Standard.....you'll notice the cunts talk about the British Courts in this "finding".....
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This may or may not be relevant but I heard the old guy got off on a technicality with the police (mostly due to the time period since the offences). Apparently not long after his son who was/is a member of Institute of Professional Engineers of NZ (IPENZ) was given Gasfitter Certifying Status along with another person when neither had done any time of tools or passed the licensing or certifying exams. Wasn't Allan Bickers in IPENZ?
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Yes Watchdog now you come to mention it I think there was a story in the press from the Police. Wasn't it to do with the time delays and there being a realistic issue around other people coming in and altering work that was done so it would be hard to prove what work was covered by the Gas Cert and what may have been changed. Still that shouldn't have stopped the PGDB taking disciplinary action surely? The whole thing was an absolute shocker that's for sure and was one of the main catalysts in going to on line certs I think.
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yep I saw the article....as the work was two years old they couldn't be sure that the work was reflected on the certs.......THEN THEY WENT AFTER MY WORK WHICH WAS WELL OVER 2 YEARS............
One rule for one and another for the rest of us............
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Hey Jax........ was that the online certs with the disclaimer on accuracy.......lol, its a joke.
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Yes Badger - those on line certs ??? ???
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How bad does it have to get before someone acts, does someone have to get blown up?
Oh wait there......
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I have a Official Information Act request in for it, I will keep you posted. Should be here June 10th, from memory.
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hi guys/Badger you say (I got made a scapegoat for one mate of the Board) my opinion is that all these guys have something on each other and to spill the beans on one is to leave themselves open to having their own skeletons in the cupboard come out. So they cover it all up and put the blame on someone else, then the wheels of justice work in the wrong way with lawyers only working with untruths and coming up with the wrong decisions, cheers
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Sounds more like it mate, I am going to see how things go with all the proper channels first.
I think they have dug themselves deeper and are in a situation where they wish they had just admitted that what I had said for six years was right and fixed it there and then, the more you shake the tree the more shit falls out of it.
Perhaps someone should shake someone and see what shit falls out. But like I said I am going to use the proper channels.
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Hey Watchdog, in light of your comment.....
This may or may not be relevant but I heard the old guy got off on a technicality with the police (mostly due to the time period since the offences). Apparently not long after his son who was/is a member of Institute of Professional Engineers of NZ (IPENZ) was given Gasfitter Certifying Status along with another person when neither had done any time of tools or passed the licensing or certifying exams. Wasn't Allan Bickers in IPENZ?
Have you seen what is happening in the CTV building collapse, the engineer quits IPENZ because he has no confidence in the IPENZ disciplinary system.......and so the investigation stops???? How many families lost loved ones???
Perhaps Allan Bickers runs the Disciplinary, joking aside though.......how wrong is this? You can opt out of a disciplinary, because you don't have confidence in it.......THINGS I COULD HAVE BEEN TOLD 5 YEARS AGO!!
Are we as tradesman of a lower life form to these "engineers"? People were killed FFS, and you can opt out........unfecking believable......
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So..........5 years and charges are still before the Board....WTF.....
FYI All,
Please see attached a letter from the Board just received today.
It has taken 5 years for the Board to take action against one of these people (judging from my experience probably the person wholly responsible), again the Board has probably tried to “make an example” of others and ignored the real culprit.
Max,…..I shall be clear and expect a swift answer as the info is at your finger tips………What happened to the guy responsible for all this, the guy who “checked all the work” and issued the blank signed certs, I can provide the importance of his responsibilities in signing those certs, because you have hit me with it repeatedly. I have attached my Hearings findings as but ONE example. I do not need his name, there are no privacy issues.
Frankly Max, it is bullshit that one of these people some 5 years later “is still before the Board”. My experience tells me, it is more the situation that it was put out of sight and it was hoped it would go away. It is a cover up. For you to pontificate about a fair trial is disgusting to me after the treatment I was dealt out, and many many others.
Now Max, just a yes or no will suffice, no names …..did you grant this same man’s son a full certifying licence around the time the person responsible for these certs handed his licence in? Did you take action against this man responsible for 570 certs to date?
So to be clear, two issues-
What happened to the guy responsible for all this, the guy who “checked all the work” and issued the 570 blank signed certs, the man from the news article? Is he the one who is still before the Board some 5 years later?
Did you grant this same man’s relative (I have been told his son) a full certifying licence around the time the person responsible for these 570 signed blank certs handed his licence in? Of note my sources tell me he was granted his certifying licence in the same manner as Tony Hammond’s (Board inspector) and John Darnley’s (person ignored by the Board for his involvement in the explosion in Milton Street), both of whom have never sat an apprenticeship, so I am told……just months after an explosion nearly killed some one?
To all of you copied in how much evidence do you need to take this issue on, do I need to up the ante?
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So this is fair?
An explosion in 2009, a damning report from the OAG in 2010, then the bullshit trial I was subjected to in 2011......then this below.
So its ok for the Board to totally ignore the OAG report?
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Now have a look at point 17 below from the findings that the Board applied to me.....
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Also see attached page two,
I am told I made the statement that I referred to my self as just a plumber, the Board can't show me where I said this....I have an email from a Board lawyer saying it was an amalgamation of 4 comments, but when you read these comments it is blatant that when read IN CONTEXT I am referring to being an employee, i.e. following the direction of my boss (as we all do), the same boss who got away with being charged with the exploding chip shop, because the charge disappeared without any trial or hearing....I can show the connections that this man has.
Next is the course of instruction....it didn't exist, I did an ASSESSMENT instead, i.e. assessed on my knowledge already known by me, I was taught nothing new (I am sure the assessor could have taught me a lot, he knew his shit, but it was not was called for by the Board), I did it with my arm in a caste from shoulder to finger tips. He told me I would be in the top 10% of fitters he had ever tested, that's tested not taught.
ALL the evidence at my hearing pointed to my old boss......he paid about 10 grand and was already retired when the chipshop exploded, I had warned about dodgy certs covering dodgy work for 6 years before the explosion, naming my old boss.....I lost my business, reputation, time with my kids and was forced to sell our family home, which we had just finished refurbishing.....my wife went to live in a caravan while I worked away to support her and my to young sons.
The Board hold on to one bullshit charge, which is explained away by a British standard.....42 out of 44 charges blown away at the hearing.
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So Nick Smith wrote to the Board on 6th June 2006, he's the building minister now.
................but in 06 my old boss met along with Board members, Tony Hammond....the man who gifted my old boss his licence and was later appointed the "impartial investigator".......
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Any one want to name those in the photo would be good, I know some but not all.
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Stephen Parker, is in it....he was appointed to chair my hearing, he closed it down just as we were questioning the investigator on the last an final charge......it is his mate...
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