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This week it’s not about Doom and Gloom but we have to fight for our rights. People before us stood up for their rights and made change.
Did you know the Board set how much they get paid for preparation reading.
It's time for Raising the Profile of the Federation as giving up is not an option and neither is waiting
Was the setting of the Examinations Policy Fair?
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I think the Federation are a bunch of idiots!
This stuff about plumbers not being able to read is a joke. If you cant bloody read and write, you really shouldn't be plumbing. You ARE a public health and safety risk. If you cant read or write or are dyslexic you cant keep up with changes in manufacturers instructions or health and safety instructions.
Why are you guys trying to water down the intelligence levels of plumbers by advocating the dumbing down of exams, the removal of the certifying level and people being allowed to have documents read to them in an exam?
Would you want a lawyer or a doctor who couldn't read?
Why are plumbers any different?
I thought the Federations stupidity was highlighted in the Campbell Live show where you said plumbers would be charging lawyers rates just because of a $300 yearly licensing fee, but this article in your newsletter trumps that.
Kerry
Plumber
Christchurch
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Well Spud, I think you missed the point. If you carry your argument to its fullest, the dyslexic and illiterate would never be able to work due to health and safety concerns. Even road sweepers and the Stop/Go sign holders at road works need to understand health and safety concerns and in some cases pass exams to prove it. There are many talented people who for many reasons find reading difficult. This does not mean that they are stupid. As far as Certifying exams go, why are they necessary? Why are plumbers not sufficiently trained in 3 years? Should the training be improved? Those are the questions that should be answered. One exam (make it a hard one) should be enough if the quality of the training is good
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Spud: When I first read your post I was very angry and had to stop myself from saying what I really thought of your discriminatory comments. I have calmed down now and say that I agree with Wombles, you seem to have missed the point and are missinformed. A lot of people out there have disabilities and they shouldn't be penalised because of their disability. People learn in different ways, visual, auditory, hands on and there are very clever people out there who use other strengths to make up for their disabilities. I know a lawyer who is blind and I would pick them over any lawyer with vision.
You go on about the Federation trying to dumb down the trade etc. Talking like that sounds like you are not well informed. What could be any dumber than doing an apprenticeship where you attend 12 weeks of assessments at polytech where they don't teach you anything. What could be dumber than qualifying at the end of an apprenticeship where you can't even apply the trade to which you are trained unless you are supervised. I would say the Federation is pushing for the exact opposite to what you are saying.
I would pit a year two apprentice from 1988 against a licensed plumber now. They had far more knowledge and better workskills than those qualifying now. There is a big difference in being good and thinking you are good. I would say to you Spud to do some more research before putting other people down. Give Wal at the Federation a call and talk to him as perhaps the people you have been listening to are giving you false information.
But Spud I say good on you for saying what you think even if it is misdirected. Good on ya.
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hi guys/Spud, as the minister says `it is only one man`s opinion` cheers
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Spud do your research mate before you gob off.
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I would just like to say how many other trades are there where you get qualified but your not qualified? This two stage system just seems a way of keeping guys working for the larger companies and making it harder to go on your own. I know when I did my certifying exam a few years ago before it got changed that business paper was an absolute bastard as the stuff that you were expected to know in your head without using any reference was crazy no wonder the pass rate was so low or guys just didn't bother going for it. Even remember taking to my boss and other older work mates and they couldn't believe the stuff that was being asked as it wasn't like that in there day.
The simple thing is train/teach people properly when they are doing there apprenticeship then put them through an exam that is relevant as I can honestly say I haven't seen one apprentice in the 7yrs I've been here in NZ have that experience then people wonder why these guys are lacking.
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I don't think it said anywhere that you should get qualified without being able to read - what it said is that there are a lot of dyslexic people in this industry - that is indeed true. It is also true that there are some in the industry who are "slow" readers - this doesn't meant they can't read, it means it takes them longer to read. The fact is this doesn't made them stupid, dumb or ignorant. It also doesn't make them bad plumbers, gasfitters or drainlayers. What it does mean is that they may struggle to complete a three hour exam in three and a half hours. The other point the article made was that the PGDB made a policy change and did not signal this to industry and that is not acceptable. These people Spud would be your heros. The PGDB are fully of people with law degrees and supposedly very learned people - but all this didn't assist them in properly notifying industry of the changes they made. Is it fair and reasonable to tell someone once they rock up for an exam that the rules have changed? I don't think so.
You can think what you like about the Federation, that is your right. The Campbell Live Show talked about things other than $300 licence fees, but spoke of the increased costs of compliance across the industry.
I believe the Federation has done everything to stop the dumbing down of the trade - and in fact it was not the Federation who tried to water down the qualifications at the SKILLS meetings that are looking at the new qualifications going forward. They argued for a six year apprenticeship which resulted in everyone being the equivalent of a certifier. It was other industry representatives that wanted an "out" at Level 3 and 4. Ignorance is different to being a slow reader.
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Bit of a change of heart from this:
has anyone heard the ad plumbing world are running at the moment? They basically refer to the Campbell Live thing on plumbers last week and make fun of it. They say that "plumbing world plumbers aren't charging excessive fees" which can only mean that they think the plumbers on the Campbell live report are.
I actually found it to be quite insulting and I think I may close my plumbing world account. It was as if they were attacking a large section of plumbers who are complaining about their fees for their own commercial gain.
Not impressed!!
Spud
What's happened mate?
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Good Points jax, I would have said it but I am a bit dyslexic.
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Bit of a joke really - that's called discrimination
And dyslexia certainly isn't something that should hold anyone one back - my BIL is suffers from dyslexia, but you know what? he found ways to circumvent, navigate and negate it - that led to him gaining a double masters deg and led to his position as QC for RR Automotive, I'm sure he would love to have a yarn with the arrogant and ignorant?!? Spud?
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Seems the Minister isn't the only flip flop in our industry
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Bit of a change of heart from this:
has anyone heard the ad plumbing world are running at the moment? They basically refer to the Campbell Live thing on plumbers last week and make fun of it. They say that "plumbing world plumbers aren't charging excessive fees" which can only mean that they think the plumbers on the Campbell live report are.
I actually found it to be quite insulting and I think I may close my plumbing world account. It was as if they were attacking a large section of plumbers who are complaining about their fees for their own commercial gain.
Not impressed!!
Spud
What's happened mate?
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Get a grip mate!
That post was about Plumbing World trying to get one up on every plumber in New Zealand who doesn't shop at plumbing world, because they have a set price and so aren't charging excessively. I have a problem with the fees we have to pay also.
What I also have a problem with was the ridiculous comments on Campbell Live saying we would have to charge $300 an hour like lawyers do because of a one off $300 a year cost. It made plumbers look really stupid.
And I stand by my comments that the industry is being dumbed down at the moment, and I think that if we give special dispensation to people who cant read or understand writing then we are just adding to this. Its not discrimination! Its a fact!
Lets allow blind plumbers as well then huh? You can bring a guide dog to work and hire a helper to guide you up and down ladders.....
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Spud
Comprehension is a skill all of its own isn't it? I am NOT advocating dumbing down the trade. I am NOT advocating giving people who can't read a ticket. Of course you need to be able to read, there are codes, standards, instructions etc. What I am saying is that there are many talented plumbers, gasfitters and drainlayers who are slow readers. This does not make them bad tradesmen, nor does it mean they are dumb. It just means that they are slow readers, not slow plumbers.
The present examination system does not allow for this. I think it should.
The Campbell Live show highlighted high compliance costs, not just licence fees. There is also upskilling (cost of course, cost of time, travel etc) all of which you need to get to the stage where you have the dubious honour of paying the $360 odd dollars in licence fees for one trade or around $700 for three trades. Knowing how they process these interviews, I am sure there was a considerable amount of footage filmed and discarded to get edited highlights - but I say good on those involved because at least they were highlighting the issues on behalf of all of us.
You advocate blind plumbers, albeit tongue in cheek - but there is a saying - there are none so blind as those that will not see.
Each to their own opinion. I can tell you are passionate about the trade. Tell me - have you every employed a young apprentice/tradesman who was great on the bookwork, but absolutely bloody hopeless when you put a tool in their hand? And, have you ever employed a young apprentice who struggled a bit with their bookwork, but was a "natural" plumber, gasfitter or drainlayer. We have trained over 30 apprentices - and of these we only had one who never completed his time - and this was down to pure laziness on his part - but I can tell you - give me the ones that struggle a bit with the bookwork but are naturals on the tools every time over the whizzy little bugger who can write the answer to everything but has two left hands. My comments come from experience with training - and these are the points I was attempting to make.
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Hi guys, all very interesting but really Jax don’t waste your time trying to educate `spud` he obviously knows everything. As a matter of interest (to me anyway) the interview on `Campbell Live`, the interviewer asked Wal after he mentioned that they have a meeting every morning if they all come in with their `plungers`. Just goes to show the perception people have of plumbers and the work that they do, lord only knows who they think does all the other water/gas/drain related work in New Zealand, cheers
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I struggle with spelling and am lost with out my spell check.....but like most dyslexics I am good with numbers....
If it was just 380 bucks for ALL the up-skilling, lost days, the license, legal representation, record keeping, paying to watch some salesman push his product, or for the money for the course, buying all my points....TO BUY THE RIGHT TO DO A JOB I AM ALREADY QUALIFIED TO DO.
Add it all up spud, it ain't just the license......all over seen by a bunch of corrupts....it is utter bullshit.
I am very proud of the Feds, makes me think we are not all sheep.
Anyone seen the latest way to build houses cheaper.......the trades should pass on the savings and share the perks, as per Nick Smith on the news. No more mark up?
Apparently we get a new Ute every three years from our suppliers!!!
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hi guys, G.S.T. is the real elephant in the room, if fact i would go as far as to say that since it was introduced the govt has given up on making the conditions for business to operate in nz profitable which in turn would reduce unemployment and provide the govt with tax revenue by way p.a.y.e. Instead it`s a tax on the cost of living whether you are working or not with companies not able to compete then closing down and putting all it`s workers on the dole,cheers
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A while back I was at a meeting when a guy asked why does it cost so much to run a register?...... a valid question.
The reply was smug and condescending....... have you seen what lawyers charge?
When this was made by a part of the Board's legal team I found it totally insulting, especially after she relayed a story about being the plumbing mafia.
Nice people.
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I struggle with spelling and am lost with out my spell check.....but like most dyslexics I am good with numbers....
If it was just 380 bucks for ALL the up-skilling, lost days, the license, legal representation, record keeping, paying to watch some salesman push his product, or for the money for the course, buying all my points....TO BUY THE RIGHT TO DO A JOB I AM ALREADY QUALIFIED TO DO.
Add it all up spud, it ain't just the license......all over seen by a bunch of corrupts....it is utter bullshit.
I am very proud of the Feds, makes me think we are not all sheep.
Anyone seen the latest way to build houses cheaper.......the trades should pass on the savings and share the perks, as per Nick Smith on the news. No more mark up?
Apparently we get a new Ute every three years from our suppliers!!!
Upskilling is free mate. Most suppliers now run upskilling courses after hours and theyre very easy to pass, even for dyslexics.
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So what's your charge out rate, or is your time free after hours......and yes when the reps are pushing their product, the cpd courses are impossible to fail which makes them a bit of waste of your time, time which you can't charge for....time I could spend with my family.
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Upskilling is free mate. Most suppliers now run upskilling courses after hours and theyre very easy to pass, even for dyslexics.
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Spud so your time after hours is free can I get you to cover all my after hours callouts for me I might just be able to make a profit ;D and what about your travel costs not all of us live next door to the merchant. Also the supplier CPD courses are really just a product push what do you actually learn? If I am going to be forced to do the bull s*#t courses I would at least want to learn something new.
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Aboutgas, exactly mate, otherwise its just hoops to jump through for your license and a bit of a farce...I like to learn new stuff.
Don't forget.... we were once totally qualified, but now I got to listen to a guy (usually just a salesman and not qualified) pushing his product for an evening.....to get my "points".
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they won't be free for much longer, remember the board don't like beer & pizza courses, they don't make any money from them. master plumbers charge $30 per point remember .
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Nothing is "free". What you mean Spud is you don't pay for them on the night, but the cost is borne by subsequently passed on. If the supplier is paying, and often providing supper to boot, then you are paying when you buy the product. "Free to you" is not "free" full stop. You pay somewhere along the line mate. We all do.
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Geez Ive never heard such a bunch of bloody whingers in my life!
hands up, how many poms are here? come on you gasfitters!!
What a bunch of sour depressing bastards
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How long have you been in the industry SPUD?
The people you have called a bunch of sour depressing bastards have a huge amount of experience and the way you are talking have probably forgotten more than you will ever know.
I was once told SPUD stood for Stupid Persistent Useless Dork. Have a bit of respect for others and don't live up to your name.
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How long have you been in the industry SPUD?
The people you have called a bunch of sour depressing bastards have a huge amount of experience and the way you are talking have probably forgotten more than you will ever know.
I was once told SPUD stood for Stupid Persistent Useless Dork. Have a bit of respect for others and don't live up to your name.
Im not sure how the things Ive said here mean I don't know as much as the other posters on here. Ive been in the industry for 20 years and been certifying for 5, registered for 14.
I just honestly think you guys complaining about a few hours a year spent upskilling after work need to get a life. Its not much time. Its free. Yeah its a drag and the courses are run by companies trying to sell their products but you don't have to buy them. Stop whingeing and moaning for Christs sake, youre making plumbers look like a bunch of tossers.
If you want something to moan about why don't you direct your attention at something real like the pathetic pre-trade courses that are being run at the moment where guys are coming out of them not even knowing how to put a hacksaw blade in a hacksaw.
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Spud, are you being deliberately obtuse? It is the poor quality of training for CPD, apprentices, pretrade courses that is objected to. Having to listen to a sales rep discuss plug and wastes IS NOT upskilling and never will be. You seem to have completely missed the point AGAIN. No-one is objecting to upskilling per se, however just about everyone objects to the poor quality "courses" available at your local merchant and online.
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I think going along with bullshit courses makes plumbers look like tossers, its called principle mate.
And by the way, if you think it will stay this way.......well I'll make a bit of a prediction, when the ground work is done, the bullshit courses will disappear (be banned by the board, this is already happening) and the biggest provider of CPD (who are over represented on the board) will start charging like a wounded bull for the courses, half price for members to boost flagging membership, it is the thin end of the wedge mate.
Please don't confuse whinging with standing up for your self. I have found those stood there staunch not saying anything, say nothing because they got nothing to say.
I am Welsh, by the way (not that you'll know the difference and be totally ignorant of the history). Your obviously Mori Ori as one of the first "originals", or may be a bat the only native mammal.
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Hi Spud. You are right with some of what you say with regard to poor training. I believe the entire training system has collapsed hence the reason so much emphasis has been put on CPD because people just aren't getting the right training. The training should be what is relevant, necessary and cost effective and CPD doesn't fall into any of those categories but yet we are wasting time doing it. It is money and resources that could be better directed.
Did you attend the Qualifications meeting this week run by Skills? It was a very sad endorsement of where our training in the industry is going.
The guys in the Federation are fighting on a lot of fronts for the industry not just about CPD, there are issues like the unlawful taking of industry money, people getting given their certifying qualifications when they haven't even done an apprenticeship, conflicts of interest, poor investigative processes, people clipping the ticket at our expense and the list goes on. I agree with Wal and the others that nothing will change unless the Board are held accountable and we can't lift the standing of the industry unless all the poxy sores are bought out into the sunlight to heal. There is a lot that happens that the industry just doen't know about.
I think everyone would agree good relevant training that produces good tradespeople is what is needed so we can lift the trades reputation back to where it should be.
Well done for doing 20 years. Not many people last that long.
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Upskilling is free mate. Most suppliers now run upskilling courses after hours and theyre very easy to pass, even for dyslexics.
Funny you mention this - I have received info in the last week or two that this will no longer be the case - now that they have their captured market they are going to be charging for all "supplier bbq courses & cpd points" - due to be implemented soon at a trade depot near you...
maybe not this year but next most definately...
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If you want something to moan about why don't you direct your attention at something real like the pathetic pre-trade courses that are being run at the moment where guys are coming out of them not even knowing how to put a hacksaw blade in a hacksaw.
This is a very valid point
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Spud - go to your local polytech and ask to go on the Industry Advisory Board. They have to have one - and provide your feedback there. The reason pre-trades continue to flourish is that polytechs get 100% of the money for these in their own pockets and therefore they love them. So, as they are unable to be stopped, you may as well have your two cents worth as to the quality of them. I agree 100% with Watchdog - training generally needs to be strengthened. It is the future of our industry. Much like the new entrants class in a school - if the quality at the polytech isn't good then the end result isn't going to be good.
I am a 4th generation Kiwi - 20 years also. I do believe in training properly, and supervising correctly - and ensuring that apprentices are held to account for their learning. I am understanding of some of the learning difficulties that apprentices bring, and also some of the hurdles tradespeople face - and from experience I have seen some excellent tradespeople who have reading difficulties, but who have persevered and succeeded.
I know that free isn't free and that I am paying somewhere along the line. And for the record my friend, I have far more interesting things to do than listen to some poxy sales rep try to sell me shit and dress it up as upskilling.
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Agree with Badger that once this all gets accepted you watch what will happen to the cost of getting your points cause these free courses will disappear and the leaches of the industry will be making there money, just another industry within the industry.
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hi guys(these free courses will disappear and the leaches of the industry will be making there money, just another industry within the industry) and this is when more people will walk away from our trades,cheers
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leaving a perfect storm..... of those who brought all this shit in, and profiting from all the cpd.......having a monopoly.
if things stay as they are the cost of plumbing will go through the roof........and don't think if your "part of it" you will stay part of it, these people have no loyalty or morals......just filling their pockets and taking people out.
Have a look at what a certain chairman charges for his cpd courses, hundreds of dollars per day.....and as we seem to be following this model, I believe it is a good indication of what will be.
I don't think this fair....so I am having a whinge.....(see - standing up for my self and my principles).
The government are trying to push down the cost of housing by hitting the trades profit, while they impose ever more cost, I don't think that fair......
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I can see the writing on the wall....but I am having trouble reading it.... :D
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:D very funny!
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Spud - go to your local polytech and ask to go on the Industry Advisory Board. They have to have one - and provide your feedback there. The reason pre-trades continue to flourish is that polytechs get 100% of the money for these in their own pockets and therefore they love them. So, as they are unable to be stopped, you may as well have your two cents worth as to the quality of them. I agree 100% with Watchdog - training generally needs to be strengthened. It is the future of our industry. Much like the new entrants class in a school - if the quality at the polytech isn't good then the end result isn't going to be good.
I am a 4th generation Kiwi - 20 years also. I do believe in training properly, and supervising correctly - and ensuring that apprentices are held to account for their learning. I am understanding of some of the learning difficulties that apprentices bring, and also some of the hurdles tradespeople face - and from experience I have seen some excellent tradespeople who have reading difficulties, but who have persevered and succeeded.
I know that free isn't free and that I am paying somewhere along the line. And for the record my friend, I have far more interesting things to do than listen to some poxy sales rep try to sell me shit and dress it up as upskilling.
I think as I get older I probably will start to become more motivated to have a say on this stuff.
I started a new apprentice yesterday, who is 3 weeks off completing the Christchurch Polytechs Pre Trade course. Without a word of a lie, when I asked him to go to the van and get me a trap, he didn't know what I was talking about. I asked him if Polytech had taught him about traps and waste pipes and venting and he said they had touched on it but he still didn't know what a trap was. I just find this absolutely staggering. Either I have employed someone who has no knowledge retention, or the CPIT is not doing their job.
My last apprentice didn't know that hacksaw teeth have to face forward. He had completed the pre-trade course.
When I finished my pre trade about 18 years ago at CPIT I could arc mig and tig weld. I could braze and lead burn, fusion weld, make a lead flashing with just a wooden mallet, pipe out a low pressure cylinder, identify, sharpen and care for hand tools. Make water tight joints in all the plumbing pipe systems, design pipe layouts for buildings, lay a drain to a grade.....the list goes on.......
This is why I am pissed off with the 'dumbing down of our trade'
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......so start "whinging" about it, do your research, find out what the federation is actually about, you might find you have more in common with them than you think....being screwed over for ridiculous fees and bullshit cpd, to do a job we are already qualified to do, is just one part of it.
Fit and proper training is big on our agenda too.
The more we stand together the stronger we are.
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I know where you are coming from Spud and you are right about the level of training but the frightening thing is the training your guy got on his pre-trade is more than he will get from attending assessments throughtout his apprenticeship. Pre-trade may not be the answer.
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I think at the end of the day to a large extent - pre trade courses seem to attract those who can't really be bothered putting in the ground work to show some initiative and aptitude to physically go around door knocking for employment - and the polytechnic's's are more than happy to have them as they get the funding for them
I would rather a young strong fit guy turn up looking for some work showing he was keen than take the so-called "best of the bunch" from pre-trade, been there done that 3/4 times now and been let down every time - pre-trade = steer clear
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Pre trades fill in where Dad's don't. Once upon a time a teenager helped Dad in the shed, got to know the names of tools and learned basic maintenance of their vehicle, the house - probably changed fuses and tapwashers and generally learned some day to day "good to know" stuff. Know with so many Dad's absent, who teaches kids this stuff? They don't learn it in woodwork or metalwork any more. I don't want pre-trade to "teach" them enough so they are dangerous - and that is the worry - if they teach them too much they will think they know more than they do and go out perking and bugger both themselves and their poor customers. We have seen this happen with pre-traders who have done the 12 month courses. The best thing about pre-trades is it gives employers who offer the one day a week work experience - a long 10 week interview of a potential apprentice.
Sure they need to learn the names of tools and fittings - pre trade should do this, but I don't want pre-traders learning how to pipe out a HWC, or do building design, or anything where they could get themselves in trouble. It should cover a lot of basic trade science - so they are "work and apprentice ready."
If they get the unit standards at pre trade they still have to pay for them again (although not repeat them) during their apprenticeship - which seems both inefficient and expensive. I'm not sure what the whole answer is - but I'm working on it!
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Pre trades fill in where Dad's don't. Once upon a time a teenager helped Dad in the shed, got to know the names of tools and learned basic maintenance of their vehicle, the house - probably changed fuses and tapwashers and generally learned some day to day "good to know" stuff. Know with so many Dad's absent, who teaches kids this stuff? They don't learn it in woodwork or metalwork any more. I don't want pre-trade to "teach" them enough so they are dangerous - and that is the worry - if they teach them too much they will think they know more than they do and go out perking and bugger both themselves and their poor customers. We have seen this happen with pre-traders who have done the 12 month courses. The best thing about pre-trades is it gives employers who offer the one day a week work experience - a long 10 week interview of a potential apprentice.
Sure they need to learn the names of tools and fittings - pre trade should do this, but I don't want pre-traders learning how to pipe out a HWC, or do building design, or anything where they could get themselves in trouble. It should cover a lot of basic trade science - so they are "work and apprentice ready."
If they get the unit standards at pre trade they still have to pay for them again (although not repeat them) during their apprenticeship - which seems both inefficient and expensive. I'm not sure what the whole answer is - but I'm working on it!
I totally disagree. Im pretty surprised by these comments. Lets not teach pre-traders too much because they might get themselves into trouble? Arent there other things in place that will stop a pre-trader getting into trouble? Whats wrong with learning how to pipe size a house or install a hot water cylinder on a pre-trade course? They cant just go and pipe out someones house on the weekend as a cashie can they? What kind of builder will let them do that? they have to be certifying to do that!
Geez Louise! The short sightedness and lack of vision of some in our trade worries me.
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I totally disagree. Im pretty surprised by these comments. Lets not teach pre-traders too much because they might get themselves into trouble? Arent there other things in place that will stop a pre-trader getting into trouble? Whats wrong with learning how to pipe size a house or install a hot water cylinder on a pre-trade course? They cant just go and pipe out someones house on the weekend as a cashie can they? What kind of builder will let them do that? they have to be certifying to do that!
Geez Louise! The short sightedness and lack of vision of some in our trade worries me.
Hi Spud. Unfortunately that is exactly what is happening, particularly in the Auckland area. Cultural and race issues also enter into the fray where cost over rides legality. The black market also exposes the failures of our registration system where people get to licensing level but are not really qualified in that they are still under supervision.
I don't think shortsightedness or lack of vision comes into it as we are in a regulated industry but do people on pre-trades come into that regulation? As it stands people who are operating under supervision who are not registered are not subject to the same regulation as the rest of us and in fact it is their supervisor who must license them and be responsible for them.
Everyone in the industry should be subject to the same rules.
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The more you look and turn over the stones, it is scary how wanting our systems are in the plumbing and gas trades...add to this the corruption and "favours for mates" carried out by the Board, its embarrassing.
Things need to change, and quick.
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Spud, you talk about short sightedness - you naivety amazes me - this IS happening. Whether it should or not doesn't matter. And not just in Auckland - try Wellington as well. Some of the polytechs run a 12 month pre-trade - with one day a week on work experience. These kids learn enough on this sort of course to be dangerous - they think they know more than they do - and they certainly don't understand the theory behind what they are doing and the ongoing implications. This is why I say don't teach them too much at pre-trade. Teach them things that make them useful and attractive to an employer so they will want to offer them an apprenticeship - trade science, measuring, names of tools, how the industry is set up, who SKILLS are, who the PGDB are, terminology used within the industry, the right tools for the right jobs, some first aid, a Site Safe Certificate, calculations and how they apply on the job - that sort of thing.
Pre trade is exactly that - PRE trade - leave the trade stuff to the apprenticeship otherwise we will end up having shit fights with SKILLS over double dipping on unit standards and time at block course repeating what they have already learned at pre-trade, and paying for it twice as well. If you run a good apprenticeship system within your business you will ensure they learn all they need while in your employ. Pre-trade doesn't train tradespeople, it gets them "apprentice ready".
These guys run the risk with the regulator, but they don't give a shit about that - and I am sure you know builders who just want the cheapest job done they can and will hire these guys to run out pipework etc as they appear to know what they are doing. I can tell you there are labour hire firms out there who are touting "tradesmen" who are exemption holders. I can give you a very clear example of some gas work that was done by a plumbing exemption holder with NO gas training at all, no gas licence, nothing - who was hired out by a very reputable labour hire company to a "we do it all" type company - and this guy installed a Rinnai Infinity - I could detail what was wrong - but read "everything" from the flue to the pipesizing, to the sizeable leak, to the illegal install. And the homeowner had paid $6500 for the job - not even "cheap" and had no hot water! So I don't know what happens in your neck of the woods, but it's not short sighted on my part - I've seen the reality of it mate.
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I totally disagree. Im pretty surprised by these comments. Lets not teach pre-traders too much because they might get themselves into trouble? Arent there other things in place that will stop a pre-trader getting into trouble? Whats wrong with learning how to pipe size a house or install a hot water cylinder on a pre-trade course? They cant just go and pipe out someones house on the weekend as a cashie can they? What kind of builder will let them do that? they have to be certifying to do that!
Geez Louise! The short sightedness and lack of vision of some in our trade worries me.
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Hi Spud
not sure what vitamins you take every morning but can I have some so I don't have to see the very issues that you obviously don't want/can't see?
I was at a installation today where someone has hung a 9kg lpg bottle next to a power point next to a infinity over the top of a gully ??? and when I asked the homeowner about it he said well the guy seemed to know what he was doing and was the cheapest quote.
Have a look at the attached picture.
The full story is his mates son did a pre trade and did the job WTF
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Awesome. nice insulation though :-\ where are the auditors when you need them?
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Are you going to report it? And what did they call you in for just out of interest - problems with the unit running? That pic is unbelievable almost - they tick every box of what not to do.....
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This is what I mean about "dumbing things down". Lets set the course up to fit the lowest common denominator.
Just because some clown "might" go and try to pipe out a gas water heater after doing a pre-trade course in plumbing, lets not teach the pre-traders anything important or technical or relevant or interesting. In fact lets not even tell them what a trap is or which way a hacksaw blade goes into a hacksaw. Lets put them through a 20 week course at the cost of thousands of dollars to the tax payer and themselves just so they are "apprentice ready". Whatever that means. Lets make the course so dull and boring that they come out the end not knowing what working in the plumbing industry is really all about, and so when they get a job theyre so useless that their bosses will be scratching their heads wondering what the hell they did for 20 weeks.
By the way guys, I haven't heard of any pre-traders doing that kind of thing here in CHCH, so Im not naieve, I just haven't heard of it. It hasn't been brought to my attention. We are pretty busty down here, or haevnt you heard.
Secondly, when I did my pre-trade, I already had a job which I had been at for over a year. All the 20 guys in my class had jobs already. The pre-trade course was seen as a way to immerse yourself in plumbing for 6 months and learn a hell of a lot more theory than you would normally at work. It wasn't a course for high school drop outs to go and do so they could get a benefit, which it seems to have turned into now.
So I think you guys have miss-read what I am saying. I am annoyed at what the pre-trade course has become. It wasn't like that in my day. Its a course to get you ready to enter the trade, whether youre totally green or have been at it for a while already. Its meant to actually give you some plumbing skills so that you can be of immediate benefit to an employer.
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Did El CHeapo also supply a GSC & CCC, both being so readily available on internet for any eejit to printout? DO let us know how you get on with ESS.I was talking to a guy on a CPD Course who reported a job to them and they wouldn't look at it because he couldn't tell them who did it. It didn't matter about the danger, they just wanted to be able to prosecute.
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This is what I mean about "dumbing things down". Lets set the course up to fit the lowest common denominator.
Just because some clown "might" go and try to pipe out a gas water heater after doing a pre-trade course in plumbing, lets not teach the pre-traders anything important or technical or relevant or interesting. In fact lets not even tell them what a trap is or which way a hacksaw blade goes into a hacksaw. Lets put them through a 20 week course at the cost of thousands of dollars to the tax payer and themselves just so they are "apprentice ready". Whatever that means. Lets make the course so dull and boring that they come out the end not knowing what working in the plumbing industry is really all about, and so when they get a job theyre so useless that their bosses will be scratching their heads wondering what the hell they did for 20 weeks.
By the way guys, I haven't heard of any pre-traders doing that kind of thing here in CHCH, so Im not naieve, I just haven't heard of it. It hasn't been brought to my attention. We are pretty busty down here, or haevnt you heard.
Secondly, when I did my pre-trade, I already had a job which I had been at for over a year. All the 20 guys in my class had jobs already. The pre-trade course was seen as a way to immerse yourself in plumbing for 6 months and learn a hell of a lot more theory than you would normally at work. It wasn't a course for high school drop outs to go and do so they could get a benefit, which it seems to have turned into now.
So I think you guys have miss-read what I am saying. I am annoyed at what the pre-trade course has become. It wasn't like that in my day. Its a course to get you ready to enter the trade, whether youre totally green or have been at it for a while already. Its meant to actually give you some plumbing skills so that you can be of immediate benefit to an employer.
busty = busy
Just to clarify.... I spent a year doing logfire installs and central heating before I did the pre-trade. I hadn't actually started my apprenticeship until I passed the pre-trade. So I went into the course pretty green and not knowing much about plumbing. That course filled me with so much confidence and made me realise how much I enjoyed the trade. that's why Im quite passionate about it, and about how affective it can be if used the right way.
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hi guys,wow that one breaks all the rules, he must have screwed the regulator right in to get enough gas for the thing to work, amazing,cheers
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Hi guys. Spud I think we are all on the same page concerning this kind of stuff but the Federation was set up to keep the board honest instead of letting them run away with any old rule that they can think up to make themselves a small fortune and high incomes for themselves. If the apprenticeships were kept in the original form of years ago, I believe that no `pre trade` would be necessary,cheers
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couldn't agree more robbo