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hi all, some thing new thats happen today,
i am a service agent for a very popular brand of gas cooking appliance, and today they have emailed saying they wont pay for the gsc i have billed them for.
i was very nice in my reply, explaining how, as of 1st July we are legally required to issue a gsc for every gas service we do.
well they came back saying "yes we know that but we only pay labour, travel and service cost" and that certification is not covered under warranty!!!!
has anyone else come across this yet, and what did you tell them?
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No body will want to pay for them mate.....so those who don't bill for them will get all the work, because they can under cut.
So you can have more responsibility for less money....
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Would you like the Federation to raise this issue with them for you? Clearly the government requires a GSC under the PGD Act 2006 and under the Amendment 2011 to the Gas and Safety Measurement Regs. There is a cost to doing a GSC - and I would suggest that the company you work for under warranty will need to pay - they are being small and narrow minded refusing to. Of course you could bill the homeowner for the GSC and let them rip the shit out of the company. Explain to any warranty calls that you can't reconnect the appliance (if you have had to disconnect, or indeed fit any fitting that has to do with combustion, safety or control of gas). Tell them that this is a charge that must be passed on but is not warranty.
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For the record Badger, I haven't had one customer that has refused to pay for a GSC or COC yet. They don't question it.
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what's a fair cost for a gsc? What is everyone else charging?
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If I were a gas supplier I would be worried over this gas certificate regime as customers aren't going to want to pay $50-$150 every time a gas fitter touches anything to do with gas on their property. And that's about what it boils down to as apart from a service a certificate should be issued in most cases. This additional cost my encourage people to go electric.
This is another example of the industry having to pick up the cost of compliance but are struggling to recover the costs appropriately. The worst is yet to come. The Government lied to the consumer that it would be cheaper and their next move will be to blame the gasfitters and claim we are charging too much for certificates.
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badger, your dead right, not only are gas fitters not issuing gsc to this appliance company but so are the electricians! they HAVE to just like us!
i will be talking to a sparky today who does alot of service work for the big names and i will be asking him.
Jaxcat, thank you for the offer, i will wait for their reply to my email last night and let you all know what they say.
i also do service work for popular water heater manufacturers and they all pay for the gsc....
badger i charge $90 for gsc, coc, gsc/coc. this includes my time and % for liablity and insurance for the next 7 years, and as i have found recently with my visit to the disputes tribunal, i should be doubling this cost, as the risk of being made to pay out is huge.
i too have had no issues with customers paying for certs, untill now ???
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My suggestion would be that you bill it as Certification and not for a Gas Certificate, because that is where the costs lie. A gas certificate is a product soi to speak the costs involved are your labour and overheads related to Certification!!! hope that makes sense.
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Hi Concerned - yes we bill as testing, commissioning and certification. $150 for COC/GSC - includes time to test, write up, type up, enter on data base and for responsibility, storage etc. I have heard costs of $50 - over $200 being charged. I know one thing for sure - it should not be free - there is a lot of time involved.
GSC's need to be done for a lot of appliance service work except straight out cleaning - anything that comes under the definition of "gasfitting" as per the PGD act needs to be certified. The suppliers are going to have to suck it up or run the risk of having irate customers - because if they won't pay the customer must. The other thing is that you could fix the appliance and not reconnect if the warranty agent won't pay, and get the customer to call them. Is their argument that you should be doing it for free?
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badger i charge $90 for gsc, coc, gsc/coc. this includes my time and % for liablity and insurance for the next 7 years, and as i have found recently with my visit to the disputes tribunal, i should be doubling this cost, as the risk of being made to pay out is huge.
that's not enough in my opinion bowtie
I had to get a vehicle re-vinned earlier this year of which i had to get a body cert for the car - that cost me $250 from a registered panel beater just for the body cert... after having to fork out for that I though bugger it and now charge within cooey of what I was charged for a similar service in the other industry
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its really hard to do integrated, as i have 100s of customers that i used to not charge a gsc too for there services of their heaters etc.
but your right and i have just had the experience where i have paid out money to go to court to justify my work, its the first time i have had to think about the cost of my certs and my liability.
in the real world we should be insuring ourselves for every job we do!! haha yeah right and major $$$$ that we would then have no choice but to pass on to the consumer!! gee the powers that be have some bloody answering too!!
do you see them sticking THEIR necks out on a daily basis??? HA
we do !!
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i have had a reply from the appliance company saying that my concerns have been past on to someone above her for consideration!!!! hahaha
wake the F..K up!
its the law!! dur !
i will keep you all informed
regards
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I'm Curious by this topic so have been reading the GSMR a bit closer and could only assume that servicing would be classed as a low risk gas fitting which then wouldn't this fall under section 46.2. A person who does low-risk gas fitting work may, but is not obliged by these regulations to, issue a certificate of compliance for that work.
Don't get me wrong I'm the same as you I believe that we should be issuing certs for anything done on a gas system and would also COC any service especially if any parts are required to be changed.
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hi, a coc and a gsc are 2 different things and are issued in different circumstances, don't mix them up, it's confusing enough already. Can anyone help with this one, does the need for a location test certificate automatically deem any installation as high risk?
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Apparently, according to ESS, removing lint is not gas fitting.
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today I have herd back from this appliance company, acknowledging that they have to pay for a gsc, but refuse to pay $90. :o
they claim that electricians have been issuing compliance certificates too them for years with charges of $3.50 to $10, and basically saying if I don't reconsider they will go else where.......
I intended to email back and explain what's involved in that $90 for a gsc and the fact that not one single other of our manufactures we act as service agents for has disputed the charge for the gsc.
has anyone else had this issue?
regards
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That reminds me - after reading your post I approached the companies we are service agents for - I haven't heard back from any of them - phone calls coming tomorrow. Sparkies certs were only $6 to buy prior to the change over so they have never charged much - more fool them if they don't charge for the responsibility. But the admin in these certs is only growing, testing, writing out the cert - the office lady typing it up, the one or two guys signing it, taking photos of the installation and then printing them off and attaching them to our copy of the cert and then when applicable entering it all on to the ESS database. $90 is cheap!!
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your dead right Jax, I sent an email back to the company in question explaining the costs/ overheads involved to the $90 cost and yet again have not had a response.
so I called the electrician that is also the agent for this company, he does a invoice with all the requirements on it, so he doesn't have a separate cert for his work, which we can do too, but.... that's messy as I can see it, I think having a separate paper work trail is important.
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I spoke to a person at ESS yesterday who had replied to a query I had regarding gas certificates.
After telling me I had to issue GSC for every service job I did, regardless of how small, I asked him did he realise how much extra cost this was putting on to the Industry, and eventually the consumer.
He could not believe that we were charging,(or trying to) for certificates, and kept on spluttering "but they are free to download!".
I tried to tell him that as well as downloading, we then had to fill these things out, attach photographs, send them out, store them for seven years, as well as cover insurance and admin costs, but all I got was "they are free to download!"
I also asked who was the bright spark who thought this scheme up, but of course the reply was "I wasn't here then"
Obviously ESS have no idea what is going on, this is going to lead to big problems soon, something needs to be done, not quite sure where to go from here.
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Hey there, you raise many good points. I may be able to help with your documentation side of all your certificates. I operate a cloud based solution for gas certification called CertOnline.
We have built a solid service heavily reducing your time in all the processes of certification. With our electronic signature function you cam email a completed document at a touch of a button, have access to all cert information from anywhere at anytime, let alone the attachment function. This allows you to store files directed related to the specific cert for recall at any stage.
The service is free to try www.certsonline.co.nz
John Orbell
CertOnline
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The reason this guy can't get his head around why we are charging for our time and future responsibility , even though the "certs" are free to down load, these people have no respect for us, we are lowly tradesman, to be shafted and squeezed for time and money, to bail out a badly run system....that loads us with all the responsibility and frees the powers that be from all the responsibility and running costs.
It is written by lawyers for lawyers.........there is no practicality in it, it is conflicting and confusing......so you need a lawyer to fight it.
Confusion in red............
This information bulletin is intended to be read by licensed certifying gasfitters. It is guidance only and is not a substitute for a full knowledge of the Gas (Safety & Measurement) regulations 2010 (the regulations).
How has gasfitting certification changed?
Before 1 July 2013, gasfitting certification had to include a number of things. You had to describe what work had been carried out and you had to make a statement that the gasfitting work you carried out or supervised was compliant with the regulations.
Under the new Certificate of Compliance (CoC) requirements you must complete a statement that you are satisfied the work carried out is lawful, safe and is accurately described.
Under the old system, the certificate also included a statement from you that the gas installation was safe to connect and that the gasfitting you carried out did not make the other parts of the installation unsafe.
With the new Gas Safety Certificate (GSC), you are making a statement that you are satisfied that the connected gas installation (or part installation) is safe to use and that any work you have completed or supervised does not adversely affect the other parts of the installation.
Does a GSC need to be issued?
All gasfitting must have a GSC.
A GSC must be issued whether or not the gas supply was disconnected. Although regulation 52B talks about the person doing the connection must issue the GSC, regulation 52B(4) goes on to read that where the gas supply was not actually disconnected, the regulation should be read as though the person completing the work should issue the GSC.
All high risk and general work must also have a CoC (and is optional for low risk).
High risk work must be registered on the Energy Safety high risk database. The database is simply a register of some of the details of high-risk certification carried out. It is not the certification itself.
How do I determine the risk type?
Practitioners need to work through regulation 5A in order to determine which risk category their gasfitting work covers.
The regulation first defines what low risk work is. For instance, maintenance of a gas appliance is low risk work if it comprises gasfitting. For example, fitting new parts would be gasfitting, blowing out lint is not.
If what you are doing is not low-risk then you look at the high-risk list. The high-risk list includes alterations or additions to existing installations. New installations are not considered to be high-risk unless they are one of the eleven other types of high-risk work listed.
These eleven variations include such things as work on caravans with sleeping quarters (‘specified’ caravans); they also include work on a building of three storeys with three dwellings; and repairs after an accident.
Note that low-risk “trumps” high-risk. Maintenance in a caravan or a three storey building is low-risk.
If the work is not low or high-risk then it is general gasfitting.
What do I do if the installation I am certifying is unsafe?
The first thing to note is there is a significant difference between something that is non-compliant with the installation code and something that is unsafe. A non-compliant situation is not necessarily unsafe. The regulations list situations that are deemed to be unsafe. See regulations 11 to 14.
There is an existing obligation to advise the occupant and owner and then Energy Safety if you come across a situation that is immediately dangerous. Immediately dangerous is a situation where an unsafe condition could immediately present a hazard to life or property.
The new regulations also state there where you are proposing to issue a GSC and you are not satisfied that the connected gas installation is safe to use or you are not satisfied that the work you have completed does not adversely affect the other parts of the installation then you must disconnect the installation (or part installation) you are certifying.
This does not prevent you or another person fixing the fault before reconnecting but you may need to seek permission from the owner before continuing.
Can we use alternative standards to gain compliance?
The regulatory regime for gas installations has for some time allowed alternatives to the means of compliance provided in the installation standard, provided essential safety can be demonstrated to be met.
The recent amendments to the regulations that came into effect on 1 July 2013 do not change that. In fact, the amended regulations provide a formalised means for recognising alternatives through Certified Designs as specified in regulation 43.
The relevant regulations are 9, 11 – 13, 43 and 44.
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Thanks for that, Certsonline,however, the problem is not so much the actual issuing of the certificate, it is the fact that these idiots from ESS seem to think that we should issue a certificate for a simple service job, or in fact any gasfitting job,which then means you then take responsibility for the installation, store the certificate for 7 years, arrange and pay for public liability insurance, pay ever increasing licence fees as wall as completing CPD points to give you the authority to issue these certificates, all at no cost!!!
As I pointed out to the gentleman from ESS, it is all very well sitting in a nice cosy office in Wellington being paid by the taxpayer, it is slightly different out in the real world.
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bager your dead right!!! >:(
and lew . your on to it too ! :D
Thanks for that, Certsonline,however, the problem is not so much the actual issuing of the certificate, it is the fact that these idiots from ESS seem to think that we should issue a certificate for a simple service job, or in fact any gasfitting job,which then means you then take responsibility for the installation, store the certificate for 7 years, arrange and pay for public liability insurance, pay ever increasing licence fees as wall as completing CPD points to give you the authority to issue these certificates, all at no cost!!!
As I pointed out to the gentleman from ESS, it is all very well sitting in a nice cosy office in Wellington being paid by the taxpayer, it is slightly different out in the real world.
now that is why I am in battle with a appliance co that ... haha doesn't want to pay ! ::) ::) ::)
these idiots made these rules with NO consultation and are not responsible for the repercussion... we are!!!
... hmmmm.. ::) ::) ::) ::)can I add wellington pen pusher fee to my gsc ????
bet I blooming well cant!!
I don't want to charge my customers for a gsc to clean their heaters, :(
I don't want to charge my customers for a gsc to fit a thermocouple to their deep fryer..........
but.... these rule changes have made me... guess that's a full stop.....
AND NO BLOODY WAY AM I GOING TO PUT MY NAME ON A CERT TO ANY JOB WITH OUT COVERING MY ARSE FULLY !!
the consumer will have to pay, I am am not!
regards
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hi guys,
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( As I pointed out to the gentleman from ESS, it is all very well sitting in a nice cosy office in Wellington being paid by the taxpayer, it is slightly different out in the real world)
.I like your thinking Lew when the rest of the tradespeople catch on (those that have not joined the Federation) we will then be a united force,cheers
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hi guys, (the consumer will have to pay) that's right Bowtieboy the govt wants more` user pay` operations so why should we be different, cheers
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hi all,
i have the latest on the appliance company that refuse to pay for the gsc i charged them $90 for.
They have replied saying that they wont pay.
They stated that they are on a sub committee to ganz and discuss the issue. they think it should be built into the labour rate with a reasonable admin charge for filling the gsc out. !!!
what do you all think ?
i would like some input to what i will reply to this company with ::)
regards
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they need to get real - realize it is not up to them to say how YOU charge
do you have a written maintenance contract with them?
if they want you to build it into your hourly rate then tally up minimum number of jobs you will do for them in a yr - multiply that by how much you want to charge for the gsc ($90 is too cheap) add that to your expected labour content for that same period and divide by expected time content = new rate they can suck on...
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No matter what you do they are going to us their money and might to screw you over. Stand your ground. If they pressure you that they will go to someone else go public and expose them for the pricks that they are. We didn't create this problem, the government did but yet we pay the price.
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Just a thought Bowtie.....
They stated that they are on a sub committee to ganz and discuss the issue. they think it should be built into the labour rate with a reasonable admin charge for filling the gsc out. !!!
Just wondering what them being part of a gas interest group has to do with what you charge and the administering of GSC's.
Thing is we have gas advocacy groups, who I guess represent those that sell gas and gas appliances....telling us what to charge for US taking ALL the responsibility for the installation of their gas appliances that use their gas.......
You see I have heard it from the horses mouth (see arse), i.e. Tony Hammond GANZ (Gas Appliance Assoc, NZIGE and many other gas groups) that the responsibility solely lies with the poor bastard that signs these jobs off.
Funny because you have to ask who makes the most money from all this???? HHMMMM I wonder.....
Also funny because he lobbied for self certification too, freeing the Gas companies from the responsibility for the safety of the peoples homes they were selling gas too.......conflicts of interest perhaps ::)
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hmm very interesting Badger,
i have not yet replied and i just might add about ganz
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GANZ is for the big players - GES (Gas Equipment Suppliers) belong, the energy suppliers e.g. Contact, Nova, Genesis etc all belong. Imagine sitting at this table and telling Genesis for example that they charge us too much for gas and that you aren't going to pay it and they need to drop it down. Like anyone would listen to you.
They cannot dictate how much you charge for a GSC or COC - there is a large administration component involved, along with the responsibility taken. We've told the companies we are service agents for that we will be passing on the cost and so far no complaints. What I have done is give them a different price to the public in view of volume of work generated. Perhaps if they don't like it they may like to voice their opinions to Government and Energy Safety who came up with the scheme in the first place.
The risk you run is that they remove a service agency from you.
GANZ have no teeth, they have no regulatory authority and when they aren't in the room with each other they are stabbing each other in the back. Threatening them is like hitting you with a marshmellow.
I don't agree that it should be included in your hourly rate, it is a specific one off cost per job - simple. Tell them it's like your version of the Electricity Levy that a lot of their GANZ members will be charging the general public.
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happy new year all :)
And a little bit of an up date on the appliance company that i was in battle with.
Well they did go else where, and one of my installations had a faulty unit that this company made, i informed the owner to go back to the shop and they did, this appliance company had a un named gas fitter replace the hob top and then the appliance co sent the owner a bill claiming non- warranty as the installation was not certified.... (it was and they had not even bothered to look on energy safety web site).
Long story short, the owner sent this appliance company a very nice letter stating the facts and asking why the gas fitter that installed the replacement hob top had not bothered to issue a certification!!
This customer knows exactly what the requirements of the gas act are and he is awaiting their reply :D :D :D
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Happy New Year bowtie, - makes a mockery of the whole shebang really doesn't it!
Hate to think how often this is happening?
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It's actually a prime example of bureauracy costing hard working, law abiding citizens money. You try to abide by the law and you don't get the job. Those who don't abide by the law get the cream and the law abiding people get the left overs.
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Bloody brilliant - and the next best thing would be if the owner puts in a complaint against the gasfitter that hasn't issued the certificate for swapping over the job. Low risk, like for like requires a Gas Safety Certificate. The companies we do warranties for are paying for the Gas Certificates - we didn't ask them, we just started adding them to the invoices. Due to volume we are giving them a slightly discounted rate. If these suppliers aren't happy then need to take it up with Government - they made the rules. During a phone conversation with ESS I made the mistake of telling them I was calling them as I wanted to hear it from the "horse's mouth" and I was very quickly told that they weren't the horse's mouth, the Politicans were. Buck passing = gold medal winners!!
The supplier will buck pass to the gasfitter who will wear it - because essentially they bear no responsibility other than the homeowner won't be too keen on their appliances if they don't back them up, and they can't back them up with people who do not adhere to the law. As Watchdog says though - it's rich pickings for them that don't give a shit.
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Your dead right Jaxcat,
this company wont want any liability, they will blame the gas fitter they got to take over my agency !! haha
that guy will wear the liability, and I will hunt down who it was, look out if it was their electrician!!!
I just couldn't get over the emails from their service manger going on about how they wont pay $90 yet acknowledge that they had to pay???
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latest up date on my saga with the certain appliance company.
they have decided to pay for the gsc for each and every job!! ::)
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I hope the price has gone up ;) after all the hassle they have caused you
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Brilliant!! I wonder what caused the change of heart? Any indication?
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Sure was Jaxcat, i explained that i had been discussing the issue with my pears in the industry.
And that my charge was fair considering the liability.
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Congratulations and well done. It just goes to show, perseverance and common sense win out at the end of the day. Also sticking together and sticking by your guns is worth it! Fine example. :D