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morning all, can anyone point me in the right direction ::)
where will i find the legal document that says that a gas fitter must issue a gas fitting certificate for altering a existing installation.?
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sorry i forgot to say "prior to 1st july 2013"
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Gas (Safety and Measurement Regulations 2010) Part 5 r44 - page 31:
44.
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(1) For purposes of section 47(1) of the Act, this regulation and regulstions 46 to 48 apply to the following kinds of gasfitting:
(a) gasfitting on newly constructed or imported gas installations
extensions and additions to, and replacement of, existing gas installations
(c) alterations to gas installations that result in repositioning of pipework or changes to the operation of the installation
(d) repairs to gas installations, gas appliances, or fittings following accidents that are notifiable under section 17 of the Act.
Every person who is responsible for carrying out any gasfitting to which this regulation applies, or, if that person is acting under supervision, the person who is responsible for that supervision, must ensure THAT THE GASFITTING IS CERTIFIED BY A PERSON WHO IS AUTHORISED UNDER THE PLUMBERS, GASFITTERS AND DRAINLAYERS ACT 2006 TO CERTIFY THAT KIND OF GASFITTING
Word for word from the Regs - THESE ARE THE REGS BEFORE 1 JULY 2013 - they have now changed but this is what you wanted I think
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Thanks Jax, this will help me in my up coming battle with a installation I originally did and a gas fitter since has altered and DIDNT cert his alteration... its going to court and I am preparing my case... thank you ;D
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Is there any thing the Federation or I can do to help?
Wal
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Thank you Wal, i appreciate the offer :D
i am of the mind that we have all our facts right and they dont have a chance, provided common sense prevails!(with the judge)
And if it doesn't,..... that's why i am preparing my evidence....... i have been through a nasty divorce ??? ??? so i will prepare the hell out of this.
regards.
This is a very good warning to all of you who do gas fitting.KEEP YOUR RECORDS FOREVER!!! forget the 7 year thing.
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Sorry to hear Bowtie.....who is taking you to court mate? is it the Board? Let me know if I can give you any help or insight. I totally know what your up against and the effect it can have.
One thing I would say, don't rely on a non gasfitter (the judge) to be able to understand you technically, and make sure you say as much as you can (as long as it is concise and relevant, which is a hard line to balance) so the evidence is on record, so you can reference it for any appeals (some times you are not allowed to adduce any evidence for an appeal).
Chin up mate....right is might (as long as there isn't any corruption)
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hi guys/bowtieboy, agree with Badger it seems to me that if you have evidence of your origonal work and can get a statement from the owner at the time of that work they (whoever they are) do not have a case against you. Very important to haul the person that you did the work for into court to say that you did not alter the origonal work, if you can nail down the identity of the person that altered the work then you are home and hosed. Who is taking you to court? surely if they know the story that you are telling is true then they should drop it and look for the right person, good luck,cheers
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I am sure there was a case certificate case in Auckland wasn't proceded with by the police as they deemed to longer period had passed and they couldn't prove who had did the work and it was more likely than not that someone had altered work. You may want to speak with Paul Gee as some of his charges weren't proved because the investigator hadn't done their job properly. It may be the same investigator. Paul's case had a at least there instances where others had been on site or the site had changed after he had done work. You could possibly use him as a witness or myself to show it is a very common occurrence.
You need to be careful of the onus of proof shifting. Initially the onus to prove is on the Board and once they show you were that last person to certify the site then the onus changes to you. This is where it gets difficult as the only way to prove someone elese has done work is if you have before and after photos, have a witness such as previous owner who can testify the site has changed or even another gas cert done after your one. More than happy to discuss it further with you.
Wal
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Even if you can show that you did not do the work and can show who did, this does not mean that the PGDB will follow it up or even talk to the person who did the work. The person at fault may never get charged. Don't hold your breath at the boards incompetence - it's truly staggering. They have a one track mind - if they are out to get you, nothing will stop them.
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Hear hear wombles......and this is why each and every person who has ever issued a gas cert should be up in arms about this Board and its direction and corruption..... and not cowering behind the hope that they never come after you and living in fear hoping they don't notice you....They will be looking for investigations to justify their existence.....good luck hiding behind not being noticed.....YOU HAVE ALREADY SIGNED THE CERTIFICATES!!....ITS A WHEN NOT IF THEY COME AFTER YOU.....they need to go after people, to justify their existence.
And they know no loyalty or morals.....assume the position while you cower and get ready for a new one to be torn.
There is a whole feast of investigations (see electric register and paper copies, that they still hold) just about ready for the picking for these clowns, which will become ripe for the picking when the mandatory audit comes in as a condition of re-license.....
How much are we going to have to pay for these ANNUAL audits?....bet they are not free :o....WHAT WILL THAT BUMP THE YEARLY COST OF A LICENSE........
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hi guys, Bowtieboy how did this case come about, can you explain how the (whoever it is) came to know of this work,cheers
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evening all, thanks for the support.
I would love to tell you all BUT, this information is very sensitive.
some thing I can tell you is that its NOT pgdb going me, its the building owners
why? because a certifying gas fitter went to the installation and told the owner it was all wrong and needed to be rectified!!!! >:( >:( >:(
the owner then goes me for major $$$$$
my first response is why was there no communication with me BEFORE paying this guy to change anything???
I am gutted
then I receive all the paper work for the court date.... hello !! this guy change my system... and he didn't issue a gas certificate!
there is lots to this case.i will tell all AFTER the court date as I believe you all need to be aware of how a chain of events can lead to a law suit.
this has caused me and my girl no end of stress and you will be horrified when I tell all.
frankly I am gutted that there are arsoles out there that will do this to their pears in our industry.
I think I know what it was like for you badger! make you want to walk away from this bs and go do some thing so less stressful like be a gardener for the local council, or be a rubbish collector or work behind a counter. ???
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sorry I should add that this gas fitter/ end trail may be viewing this web site, so I wont be giving him any clues to who what and when.
but I WILL have my day.. trust me >:(
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hi guys/Bowtieboy, can`t see how the owner can be asking you to fund repairs that may or may not have been required, if there was an issue with what you had done then the owner should have contacted you to fix/repair/put right. If you refused to do that he is then able to nominate a repairer and passs the bill to you, however in this case being `gasfitting work` he must then issue a gas cert as this is now classified as high risk,cheers
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your dead right robbo.!!
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Bowtieboy.
I hope this all goes well for you,
all the more reason for Gasfitters, plumbers, drainlayers to have a good look at the liability they carry in the course of plying their trade. Another reason for having a good peer network, like this fourm.
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The right to remedy in the first instance is I am sure fairly entrenched in law. If you were never given the opportunity to re-visit and if necessary put right then I do not believe you can be held culpable, unless the situation was immediately dangerous and you were unavailable, and even then I would have thought the onus was on them to prove they attempted to contact you.
To strengthen your case, do you need to file a complaint with the PGDB over uncertified gas work? You obviously have proof that work was carried out by someone other than yourself in the court papers. And for a certifier to do work and not certify it - well there really is no excuse is there. I agree, and I drum in to my apprentices to keep good work diaries and to never throw them away, especially when it comes to gas work.
You can privately contact the Federation through Wal if you need any technical advice as we now have a small group who have made themselves available.
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can you give us any clues? what exactly is wrong (according to the other 'gasfitter') with your installation?
The suspense is killing me.
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07442, sorry but I wont be giving any detail at this time.
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evening all, who is the gas fitting guru here? I have a very specific question about a gas appliance that I would like a opinion on.
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Fire away - we have a number of certifying gasfitters with heaps of experience in one place, including a specialist serviceman of many years experience.
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And up date for you all on my court case...
a big thank you to Jaxcat for sound advise and a little help with tools to use in court.
I won my case against the owners of a building who had another gas fitter come in and claim my work was all wrong.( he charged them a arm and a leg blaming me! but I really believe he was a opportunist and just saw a easy target !)
The judge said the gas fitter had provided no evidence that the original installation was incorrect, and that the work he had done was completely at the discretion of the owners of the building and was over and above the requirements of the manufactures installation instructions.
I made it quite clear that the gas fitter had not certified the alterations yet the judge made no comment of this in the summery.
all in all a good out come, but also a lesson. keep good records of everything, including emails to customers, with dates etc.
regards
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just be careful thinking you will have the emails forever as the holders of that info are only required to hold it for 7?years
I had a heap of data that was lost due to this happening to me where the email service provider automatically deleted anything that rolled over to 7yr old
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Only just seen this thread - well done Bowtie Boy - and just goes to show the value of a forum like this where we can all pitch in with information. I bet you can sleep a bit better now. All this stuff just adds to the stress of our everyday lives - when what we just want to do is a good job and go home. Gasfitting will become more and more about paperwork and photos and records - goodness help us if plumbing goes self certifying.
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hi guys, could,nt agree more Jax, this site/forum has done more for our trades in advice/update of regs and help in so many areas than anything in the past, i think it is a great shame that the `Board`had not taken a more friendly approach years ago rather than a bullying money grabbing entity that it now is. Well done BowtieBoy i believe that your case is a good example,cheers
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thanks Jax and robbo, your dead right, this web site helped me get through what I considered was a bloody night mere!!
I remember the days when we could ring up the old pgdb ... ask for a tec and get a answer and move on... not any more... which to tell you the truth pisses me off,
I for one expect that any authority that takes my money, dictates what is right and wrong too me, and punishes me when I am wrong cant be the first call to ask any simple innocence question. ::) ::)
now I have no respect for pgdb at all, they are just ripping us off big time, very frustrating >:( >:( >:(