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hi guys, looks like the `Board`s` website has been hacked or an `insider` leak, cheers
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We have received enquiries from a number of tradespeople who have received emails from an organisation calling itself “Certs online” in the last few days. It appears that “Certs online” may have extracted information from the Board’s public register to generate these emails.
These emails may give the impression that they relate to the proposed new gas certification database. This is not the case.
I can advise that “Certs online” is not associated with either the Board or Energy Safety and has no role in the introduction of the new database.
The Board and Energy Safety websites are being updated regularly with information about the new database for high risk gas work as it becomes available.
Max Pedersen
Chief Executive
Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board
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We got emails at work with user names that were registration numbers with the 0 missing and a log on password. Our IT providers contacted me about 60 emails from Certs on line that were addressed to different gasfitters - when I got him to read me out some of the names they were guys I knew from Auckland, Palmerston North and Christchurch - somehow all sent to one of our emails addresses at work. The idea behind Certs on Line is not a bad one, but I would like it much more if we knew who was running it and they were a little more careful with the information.
All of what they have could have been gained from the public part of the PGDB register - so no issues there, it's just that they should have had an email introducing themselves and telling us who they are - and also a bit more about the security of the site, who owns the information if the data base is secure or going to be on sold etc. A good business idea that could go tits up if they don't explain a bit more I think.
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This is the email we got from the Board on Friday. .........
We have received enquiries from a number of tradespeople who have received emails from an organisation calling itself “Certs online” in the last few days. It appears that “Certs online” may have extracted information from the Board’s public register to generate these emails.
These emails may give the impression that they relate to the proposed new gas certification database. This is not the case.
I can advise that “Certs online” is not associated with either the Board or Energy Safety and has no role in the introduction of the new database.
The Board and Energy Safety websites are being updated regularly with information about the new database for high risk gas work as it becomes available.
Max Pedersen
Chief Executive
Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board
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its owned by a guy called jonathan Orbell in whitianga also owns a plumbing company there called highflow ltd
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Well great idea, but it still would have been a good marketing ploy to introduce himself and say that it was his baby. I have a few questions about who owns the information, how secure it is etc. You could get a scenario where a gasfitter could buy all the information on gas certs in say Auckland - purchase a copy of the data base and then target them for servicing etc. So you want surety around security, privacy and how long the information will be held etc. what happens if the guy goes out of business...
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I doubt they will be offering this service for free. Why would you want to pay for a certificate of compliance and gas safety certificate that you can produce and issue (electronic or paper version) for free yourself?
You have to retain the certificates and job information for 7 years yourself anyway.
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As you are well aware by now there is big changes ahead for the gas certification process in a couple of weeks.
I see there are a few questions here about the data storage aspect of CertOnline, but please be reassured that all data is stored for your own needs. There is no interest in third party distribution, and clearly states this in the terms and conditions of CertOnline.
The website will be live very shortly, and I have tested the systems to the brink.
It is my baby, and I am very happy with its service that it will offer any gasfitter that chooses to use it.
I saw a big problem coming for myself and how I was to continue in providing a document
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hi John, what are the costs involved,cheers
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CERTSONLINE
The Certs will be available in 3 prepaid options,
1x cert $20+gst,
5x cert $75+gst,
10x cert $100 +gst.
As you can see the more you purchase in advance reduces the overall cost. Being a gasfitter i have always charged a certification fee, this covered my time, and upskilling (cpd) and the cost from the board. The credits do not run out. When you register for the first time your account will be credited with 2 free credits. This will enable yourself to make an informed decision.
I have added an electronic signature ( a form is required to be signed and sent to CertOnline for upload) option that allows you to store your own signature with in your dashboard allowing you to complete the form online and then email to clients. No printing required, real-time creation in customers time, and the certificate will be stored with in your secured dashboard for your future reference. I will be using this option as its Ipad compatible, and I hate paper work in the evenings.
I have attached an email so please feel free to contact me, i do run my own Plumbing gasfitting & drainlaying business, so replys timeline could vary.
John Orbell
Mangaing Director
Certs Online Ltd
info@certsonline.co.nz
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Bloody typical of the Government and their incompetent departments as the weekend before a major change to energy safety/ gas certification they close down their web site.
Energy Safety’s online services will be temporarily unavailable from 9:45pm Friday 28 June 2013 (NZST) while work on the igovt logon service is changed over to the RealMe login service. Normal access should resume on or before 8:30am Monday 1 July 2013 (NZST). We apologise for any inconvenience.”
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Well I somehow managed to find my way through to getting registered to realme . it is not a simple process as they claim thats for sure ,
Regarding certification it looks like all work on an existing installations is high risk so cant see the need for for certs online may as well load everything there , its free as well , the crazy thing is it appears that new installations done according to the code wont need to be entered but will have to be if subsequent work is carried out , Am I reading this right?
I love the statement better and safer outcomes for everyone .
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I had similar problems registering mate, but that's what it looks like to me Peasea, if high risk is anything done outside of the regs (by default anything inside of the regs isn't high risk?) and only extensions to an existing install are high risk .....
What happens if the pipe work in the original un-certed installation is faulty (perhaps hidden in a wall, done by someone who's issued a "made up" cert, who might even be unqualified, remember these installs are in houses not tents.....they should be there for decades, good luck tracing down someone 15 years after NOT registering a job or officially certing it)......
......and then you add to this install and cert it....and THEN you have a problem with the original un-certed pipe....and the only official cert is in your name and the original guy has disappeared......who are they going to go after......
I can here people now saying what's the odds on that happening....well what odd's would you gamble your livelihood on???
Believe me just being accused is enough, even if you prove you have done nothing wrong.
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hi all, can some1 please clarify what the procedure is now for a gasfitter from when the job is completed, lets say its to install a infinity, WHAT is the procedure to comply with certification?
Is it to make your own cert with details of work and testing procedure and just file it at the office?
I am asking as not only myself but i picking many others are also confused.
Do we produce anything to anyone or just have something on file, also what is the paramiter of info required?
I am very confused .
thanks guys
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Same Craftsman, I have asked and asked, but just keep getting referred to the same press release.....Please can someone clarify.
Seems to me, when your setting a minefield, you don't give out the plans of the minefield willy nilly..... just to your mates.
Why can't we have it black and white..... you DO do this and you DON'T do that....plain and simple.
Mandatory and non mandatory, descriptive and normative, high risk and low risk (with a general work thrown in for good measure).....bloody hell, keep it simple, we can all read a book with a index and use a tape measure....but where's the money in that if everyone gets it right (which incidentally would be a huge benefit in keeping the public safe, which is their goal????). If we make no mistakes how could they force CPD on us and charge us to finance the prosecution anyone, at all, that picks up a spanner.
There are so many grey areas, but you can't get a straight answer....until your up in front of a disciplinary hearing....then they are full of opinions....man, you can't stop them having an opinion, and lying and withholding evidence.
Like they said its not economically viable to give out advise......but there is money in f****ing you over.
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hope this helps guys
cert of compliance
http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/installations-networks/gas-installations-and-networks/gas-installations/certification/coc
gas safety cert
http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/installations-networks/gas-installations-and-networks/gas-installations/certification/gsc
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well thanks integrated, clear as mud now...................................
can some1 now explain in simple terms?
maybe i can ring the board and get one of the lawyers employed to explain it all to me..
the keep it simple stupid philosophy has really taken off.
why on this earth did all this change from what was the previous procedure, surely not because some1 charged for the time, effort and responsibility of filing a cert
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now i am really excited about gasfitting, ...
excited about chucking it in and selling ice cream instead
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I think if you rang the Board, they would claim that they now have no responsibility for COC therefore couldn't possibly give any advise. ie same as before.
Now that we have a standard example that I acceptable to the powers that be, could someone please explain why we should pay Certs on Line for the privilege. I really don't get it.
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Just had a very helpful and patient lady ring me out of the blue to walk me through registering with ESS.....and none of the codes are being sent to me, but they were coming through to her!!
She genuinely sounded a nice person.......how come all the OK/good people get to deal with/make work all the bullshit that the "experts" enforce on us......mind you we are incompetent (but only when they told us we were.....because up until they told us we all carried on quite swimmingly.....apparently in ignorance of our incompetence......but everything worked and shit got done....thank you pen pushers/life savers)
Hope its not another Nova debacle.....an expensive ill thought out computer system that can't do what someone used to do with a pen and piece of paper!!!! .......or a Novo virus.........either way it is giving me the shits......
They have made this great trade way too complicated.....they can have it, I am out at the next opportunity.....let the bureaucrats crawl through shit under houses and climb through roof spaces dragging shitloads of pipe and tools with them....I off to sell coffee........ $25 a cup for those pushing pens and a CPD course on how to f****ing drink a hot drink, with warning labels for heat and scaffolding and edge protection for the steps in.....
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I think we should start awarding COC awards.....
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There are three documents:
COC (Certificate of Compliance)
GSC (Gas Safety Certificate)
and a combined certificate (COC&GSC)
You can make up your own using the guidelines outlined on the ESS website, OR use the templates on the ESS website, OR use the Master Plumber one's OR use the one from the Federation.
Basically all the variances have to have standard information on them as outlined by ESS. They cost you time to do, but you don't have to pay for them. You need to keep a copy for yourself, and give your customer a copy.
Basically:
Design and Installation - must be done to the manufacturer's instructions, and meet the gas code. Now there is a formal recognition of the roles of certified designs and manufacturer's instructions. This clarifies accountabiluty of everyone involved in the safety of completed work. Most work will be done in accordance with AS/NZS5601. If the install is subject to a certified design, the DESIGNER
must certify the design is compliant and safe.
The gasfitter installs, tests and connects in good faith, to rely on the certifed design, UNLESS THE GASFITTER DOES NOT ACCEPT OR HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT THE DESIGN WILL ACHIEVE COMPLIANCE AND SAFETY.
The purpose of this is that that someone other than the installing gasfitter may take responsibility and liability that the design is compliance and will achieve safe outcomes.
So a certified design can be a separate document, OR the design can be done by the certifier and be incorproated into the certification - COC - see space for design sketch.
So you go and quote an Infinity, you draw up a diagram of where it is to go, you draw the pipework, you show the sizes of said pipework, the measurements from windows etc all the things that need to comply with the manufactuer's instructions and 5601 (and you must identify the location of the instrullation, identify the standds if any e.g. 5601, to which iw will comply and sign and date it).
You then install the Infinity.
The COC is to ceritfy the compliance of the work PRIOR to connection. Gasfitting work is not considered complete UNTIL the COC is completed. If two or more gasfitters are involved, then more than one COC may be done. The COC is issued by the person who did the work OR Supervised the work. (same as now they have to be a certifier).
The GSC is required to be issued AFTER COMMISSIONING and connection of any installation and verifies that the completed installation as connected is SAFE.
If the same person does the work up to and including installation they would fill out a combined COC and GSC.
Consumers must be issued the COC and GSC (and likewise anyone who contracts the work must get a copy). if they are not radily available, then the occupier or owner of the premises is to be given one.
Certs can be emailed or stored electronically, or paperbased if that suits.
you have up to 20 working days from connection to issue certificates.
if requested a copy fo the COC must be sent within 10 working days and the GSC within 7 working days to organisations and individuals listed int he regulations (this will be the PGDB, ESS etc)
I hope this helps clarify.
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Very good jaxcat. :'(
so what if I don't write up a coc? who will know... the customer wont, the gas supplier wont, pgdb? ess? nope.
I have people who CALL themselves gas fitters in my area that will be laughing all the way to the bank with this. NOT GOOD.
there is no protection for the public AT ALL.
you would have read of my "picture this" else where here....
so here is another one....
new house, builder rings me up, install x y and z appliance's, write up a coc and the builder gives it to the TA. ...end of storey.
am I a gas fitter? do I have a current licence ? have I complied with the requirement? ... the TA doesn't care, they are not paid to check that I am in fact who I claim !! :(....
flip flop gas fitting then disappears !
and tomorrow I am flop flip gas fitting 2013 and start my next job for my next victim.
this is sooo wrong. yet again some one is not using their brain! ???
I have one concern that you have said, if I go to a job, plan to install a say infinity ( as most of us do every other day) .
go back to the office, draw a pipe sizing plan, location etc on the quote, then get the job, does that make me the designer??
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One more major mistake I can see is, who is going to be able to audit me? flip flop gas fitting has no records ! I can say I only do maintenance!
and any auditor will have no way of knowing other wise.
its just too easy! what a mess! ???
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If you agree to our terms of use, we will use all reasonable care and skill to:
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So their commitment to us is......The Ministry of Business, Innovation & Employment does not accept any responsibility or liability for any loss, including any costs and expenses, you incur in connection with your use of these services.
After the crap I been put through thinking of putting this on my invoices.....
I do not accept any responsibility or liability for any loss, including any costs and expenses, you incur in connection with your use of my services.
Please explain the difference to me.....we get ALL the cost and responsibility.....but what do they get.....another slanted pitch...
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How many people actually read the terms and conditions??????
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If you grant delegated authority to allow another user to access our services on your behalf, you agree to:
acknowledge that you are granting that user the right to make use of our services on your behalf, including but not limited to, the creation or amendment of high-risk electricity and/or gas records; and
accept that any action performed by that user that you have granted delegated authority to, is in effect acting on your behalf and that in doing so you are responsible for any actions they make on your behalf.
what safeties do they have on this......before an incident!!!
This will not end well.....FFS..... and it is us who need up-skilling....
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So some muppet, just like my old boss (who was signing off unlicensed/probably totally untrained people) can grant people to enter jobs on the high risk register......
How on earth will they know who or even what are these people are....YOU WILL ONLY BE AWARE AFTER
At least before we had hand writing on a cert....(admittedly totally ignored in my case), but at least I knew it wasn't my hand writing.....
Just look at this list of paper work and terms and definitions and legalise on this stream......unf****ingbelievable.....
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Bowtieboy - yes I believe so - if you plan it and draw it up with pipe sizing etc - then you are the designer.
I agree this system gives NO protection to the public, every man and his dog and download the "authentication" mark and put in on their own COC and look legit - or indeed not do a certificate at all and who will know. And when it goes pear shaped - where is the paper trail.
I know I wrote to the Insurance Council two years ago when this was first mooted because I thought they would object - but silence. This whole scheme was dreamed up by suits in DBH - with NO thought and very very little imput by tradespeople.
It was meant to make things simplier.
The joke is, unfortunately on us from 1 July, but also for the wider NZ public.
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So what happens if you decline the terms and conditions to join their register?
I am from tomorrow looking for a new career, there is just too much crap for me.....which will be all the better for those setting up this monopoly for themselves......well they can have it.
Pretending to be there for the public safety while ignoring the public's real actual safety, just to off load all the responsibility and accountability and cost on to us, well f**** it.
my back and knees are gone and now soon my sanity if this crap continues. This job is not worth it.
I have spent too long trying to deal with this bullshit and I found out Monday that my Dad has cancer, which puts things in perspective in regards to what you do with your time in this mortal coil.
I am going to find a much more rewarding job, and devote my time to my wife and sons.
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Sorry to hear of your old boy badger - yes there are more important things in life - family is one of them - may strength be with you and yours
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Hey like wise, All the best to you and your Whanau Badger.
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Thank you guys, does mean a lot, if I told you the whole story you wouldn't believe it.
I have just asked the ES that if I keep within the regs and do not add to an existing installation....than I have no need for the high risk register and so don't need to agree to the one sided contract, where I have full liability and they have none....
I'll let you know what they say.
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sorry to hear your news Badger, i wont refer to your father as anything other than your father as like me you only have one, which makes them special .
i wish him well..
In regards to your thoughts on staying on in the trade, it would be a shame to lose anyone let alone somebody like yourself.
your and my way of thought process must be vary similar as i feel likewise, i dont do that much gas work these days but still have thoughts that its all just to hard, nothing like when i served my time.
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Badger, is adding to a existing system classed as high risk?...as in a domestic home, adding a appliance?
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Sorry to hear about your dad, been through that with mine, and still going through it with my little boy. I hope he comes through as well as they are.
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Badger, Gordy - we spend so much time on the issues around our job and it is sobering for both of you to share some family news. Sending good thoughts your way - it does put things in perspective. Life is short and you only get one go at it. I've always said if you don;t love what you do then do something else. Badger, I know you love what you do but others have tainted that. Karma is a b****, sometimes it takes a while to be dished up, but dished up it will be.
Thinking of you as you grapple these issues head on. Kia kaha.
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Its appalling that we have to fight so hard for a fair go and have our lives turned upside down by these people, life can be hard enough as it is. Sorry to hear your news Gordy mate, and I am sorry for bringing it up guys, its just sometimes things get on top of you. But yes I have had it with these clowns, not going to stop fighting them just going to attempt do it from another career that's all.
As I see it in their press release's if you stick to the regs and don't do extensions to existing installations, you don't need the high risk register...I am waiting confirmation on this.
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hi guys, can we just print out and fill in this cert form to cover the new requirements? it seems to have all the relevant info covered,cheers
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There are three documents:
COC (Certificate of Compliance)
GSC (Gas Safety Certificate)
and a combined certificate (COC&GSC)
You can make up your own using the guidelines outlined on the ESS website, OR use the templates on the ESS website, OR use the Master Plumber one's OR use the one from the Federation.
Basically all the variances have to have standard information on them as outlined by ESS. They cost you time to do, but you don't have to pay for them. You need to keep a copy for yourself, and give your customer a copy.
Basically:
Design and Installation - must be done to the manufacturer's instructions, and meet the gas code. Now there is a formal recognition of the roles of certified designs and manufacturer's instructions. This clarifies accountabiluty of everyone involved in the safety of completed work. Most work will be done in accordance with AS/NZS5601. If the install is subject to a certified design, the DESIGNER
must certify the design is compliant and safe.
The gasfitter installs, tests and connects in good faith, to rely on the certifed design, UNLESS THE GASFITTER DOES NOT ACCEPT OR HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT THE DESIGN WILL ACHIEVE COMPLIANCE AND SAFETY.
The purpose of this is that that someone other than the installing gasfitter may take responsibility and liability that the design is compliance and will achieve safe outcomes.
So a certified design can be a separate document, OR the design can be done by the certifier and be incorproated into the certification - COC - see space for design sketch.
So you go and quote an Infinity, you draw up a diagram of where it is to go, you draw the pipework, you show the sizes of said pipework, the measurements from windows etc all the things that need to comply with the manufactuer's instructions and 5601 (and you must identify the location of the instrullation, identify the standds if any e.g. 5601, to which iw will comply and sign and date it).
You then install the Infinity.
The COC is to ceritfy the compliance of the work PRIOR to connection. Gasfitting work is not considered complete UNTIL the COC is completed. If two or more gasfitters are involved, then more than one COC may be done. The COC is issued by the person who did the work OR Supervised the work. (same as now they have to be a certifier).
The GSC is required to be issued AFTER COMMISSIONING and connection of any installation and verifies that the completed installation as connected is SAFE.
If the same person does the work up to and including installation they would fill out a combined COC and GSC.
Consumers must be issued the COC and GSC (and likewise anyone who contracts the work must get a copy). if they are not radily available, then the occupier or owner of the premises is to be given one.
Certs can be emailed or stored electronically, or paperbased if that suits.
you have up to 20 working days from connection to issue certificates.
if requested a copy fo the COC must be sent within 10 working days and the GSC within 7 working days to organisations and individuals listed int he regulations (this will be the PGDB, ESS etc)
I hope this helps clarify.
When was a coc ever required , seems to me this is adding to the confusion , a gas safety certificate was all that was required and in my mind should still be the only certificate required , the certifying gasfitter has ultimate resposibility so why add this coc confusion,
Reading through all the online guides would it be too hard to separate the gas from the electrical so they are specific to one or the other , in one guide it refers to still filing certificates to the the PGDB , this looks to me to be a bigger #$%&^% than Dunkirk
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hi guys, surely if you are a certified installer and if you fill one of these gas certs in and state that work has been done to the manufacturers specs and that it complies with current gas regulations then job done what more is there?,cheers
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How are you reading it, we have to issue a COC or GSC for a service or repair?
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How are you reading it, we have to issue a COC or GSC for a service or repair?
The point I am making Badger is when and why did this coc appear , we were only required to file a gas certificate . call it what you like but the certifyer is utimately responsible ,
Has any one found out whether a new installation requires registering on the high hazard register ?
seems crazy if not ,once you register anything on there you open yourself up for an audit as this seems the only way they can determine what you are doing
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hi guys, (we have to issue a COC or GSC for a service or repair)a certificate of compliance surely is a completed gas cert issued by the installer/certifyer, thats how i read it,cheers
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do I have to issue a gsc for servicing a gas appliance???? ::)
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???
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You are not required to issue either a CoC or GSC for the maintenance of gas appliances and fittings in an installation. Normal maintenance is classified as "low risk" gasfitting.
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Actually happy plumber I think you may find that is incorrect - if you change a gas valve, or a thermocouple for example I think a GSC is required. Check out the ESS website and look at the graph - Low Risk gasfitting REQUIRES a Gas Safety Certificate. Reference "Practitioner Guide to the Regulatory Changes for Certification of Gasfitting" MOBIE p2 (1st edition May 2013), and again in another graph on their website.
The COC is optional for low risk gasfitting.
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So if you change a thermocouple on a fire you didn't install, the first time you see it is when you go to repair it.....you "sign it off" as being safe, but something is changed after you leave or you miss something that you can't see and it goes horribly wrong.......are we to strip every flue to make sure its right or to photograph every thing we visit in case someone alters it after you leave?
Someone could decide they don't want the vent in the wall and plaster over it, you will have to prove that it was there, so now I have to photograph every inch of a maintenance/service job?. Remember you are guilty until proven innocent, the Board have received even more power and resources, the ESS might be administering this system, but it will be the Board who police it and persecute you.
How much of the carcass/pipework/supply is down to you, the fire can't work with out a supply.
How long is a GSC valid for? the seven years that you must keep a copy?
Feels like a lot of signing off, for a lot of responsibility.
How much are you guys charging for these GSC's and the data storage and responsibility that goes with it?
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What happens if you come across something that contravenes the regs but has been working fine for 20 years, for example a flue which has a terminal too low, too close to the roof, you test it for spillage and it passes.....you change the thermocouple on the fire.....you get it going, do you sign it off? Might be working because it is an optimum weather day, might spill tomorrow.
Are we to check over a whole system for any faults/unconformities to the regs before we start work? what if they don't tell you about a part of the carcass? you might tell them it needs not only a thermocouple but another length of flue? they say f**** off I'll get the moron back to change the thermo couple, the one who installed it, how do you charge for this cancelled visit?
Remember we can't turn anyone's gas off, its their property....we can only inform ESS and the client about potentially dangerous jobs and dangerous jobs. They will go to someone who WILL issue a GSC and not charge for all this "extra" work, putting the good gasfitters at a disadvantage and the cowboys as the go to guy......I HAVE LIVED THIS SYNARIO, please don't tell me I am being paranoid.
And when it explodes....they WILL f**** you over....and protect their mates......good luck signing this shit off people.
We have now become the Board from a responsibility and data storage perspective ....being overlooked and stood over by a group who couldn't do it them selves properly.....remember the disclaimer on the electronic register for gas certs......do as we say not as we do......hypocrites.
What are you going to charge for this privilege?...all brought in to cut costs.....to them, not us or the customer.....
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Badger, you really don't have to worry about ESS. If there is a complaint, they ring up the customer to discuss it with them. As far as I can see that's ALL they do. Certainly didn't appear to send anyone out to check or shut down system. Certainly wont be bothering complaining about a dangerous installation again. And whats with the "Must tell the people who complained about their work" Surely this is counterproductive especially in a small town. The result of this is that I could take you for a walk and show you 50 bad installations in a couple of hours. NO-ONE cares
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I think you do have to worry. I know of a case where a customer complained to the Board, the Board sent an officerwaller to do an audit, the officewaller complained to ESS, ESS sent out an investigator who investigated and laid a complaint with the Board who then appointed an investigator to investigate as a discipline issue.
So I believe there is plenty to worry about
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Jaxcat I think you may be confusing installation work and maintenance work. A GSC is required prior to connecting a low risk (or general or high risk) installation to the gas supply. That is the purpose of the GSC - to certify that the installation is safe to connect. Maintenance work does not normally involve the connection to the gas supply (it is already connected), so no GSC is required.
Maintenance work does not require a CoC provided the work does not make any changes to the installation pipework, flue system, installation pressure, gas type, energy consumption, ventilation or operation of the installation. Changing a thermocouple or gas valve like for like would not (normally) cause any changes to the installation, co no CoC would be required.
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I would really love to get this clarified
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So happy plumber, if you are changing a gas valve, then you need to terminate the gas supply to change the valve, and then reconnect the gas supply - I still believe a GSC is required for this from reading the paperwork.
And I still think a thermocouple fits into this too.
From the Gas and Safey Measurement Regs 2010
Meanings of low-risk .....
"Low risk gasfitting means gasfitting that comprises any of the following:
skip to
5A (1) (b) the maintenance of fittings and appliances in an installation, other than repair work that is carried out following an accident that is notifiable under section 17 of the Act:"
I am interesting in discussing this though, as it does have ramifications for servicing gasfitters.
What do you think happyplumber?
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And this is the problem.....
We have a situation open to interpretation with the analysing of policy and the deciphering of legalise, by practical people .
Why does this have to be so bloody confusing.
Most, if not all, good tradesman I know are practical, straight forward people.....this type of confusion just don't fit with us.
Are they doing a road show to explain this.....or perhaps they will wait until we make mistakes.....which will confirm our need to up-skill....
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Jaxcat, not sure what you mean by "terminate" the gas supply, but if you mean disconnect the supply i.e. disconnect a house at the meter to carry out maintenance, then I agree a GSC is required on reconnection. But if you only isolate the gas supply to perform the maintenance then a GSC is not applicable as there is no connection or disconnection.
The maintenance of fittings and appliances is low risk gasfitting under 5A(1)(b) as you have noted, so provided that a maintenance (i.e. replacement part) change is like for like, the no CoC is required (its optional of course).
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hi guys, what a nightmare, do you thik the board will will refund my licence? not sure that it is worth it anymore,cheers
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By now everyone should be realising this is the Government passing the buck with their hands off approach to regulation. Just another action to pass responsibility on to others. Some of the industry welcomed self certification and look where it's taking us. The public was safer when we had gas inspectors.
Whats going to happen when drainlaying and plumbing go to self certification?
I personally think this is another way of increasing the Boards income through discipline as there is so much open to interpretation and none of the government departments or the Board are prepared to to give us their interpretation. We have to take the bloody Act and Regs to our lawyers to get their version and we know lawyers aren't always right just ask the ones that advised the Board about their fee structure.
Absolute bunch of tossers.
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So Happy Plumber if....
The maintenance of fittings and appliances is low risk gasfitting under 5A(1)(b) as you have noted, so provided that a maintenance (i.e. replacement part) change is like for like, the no CoC is required (its optional of course).
Do you think it needs a GSC?
Man this is so confusing.
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if this system was brought in to save money? All I have seen is increased cost to tradesman and the customer. So who is saving money.....hmmmmm ::)
Remember if anything goes wrong, it will be the Board screwing you over....and believe you and me they love this murky legislation to hit you with. Try and get a explanation off them before an incident.....you can't shut them up at the hearing.
If the true intention was to protect the public how on earth does this system prevent accidents/monitor quality......it just doesn't..... you only find out afterwards.....
Bring back inspectors.
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Badger, I would guess that most maintenance work is done by isolating the gas supply (not disconnecting), and by using like for like parts for replacement, and does not alter the operation of the system. So I would expect this meets low risk classification and no CoC or GSC is required.
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Happyplumber, How would that fit in to from Jaxcats last post ....
"Low risk gasfitting means gasfitting that comprises any of the following:
skip to
5A (1) (b) the maintenance of fittings and appliances in an installation, other than repair work that is carried out following an accident that is notifiable under section 17 of the Act:"
I am totally confused now, be nice for it to be easily understood.
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It IS Low Risk Gasfitting Badger, and according to the three different graphs I have seen - all Low Risk work requires a Gas Safety Certificate.
For General and High Risk Work BOTH a COC and GSC are required.
I still stand by my assertion that ALL low risk work requires a GSC - "requires" is the word ESS are using in their material. I don't think this is open to any interpretation.
Go on line to www.ess.govt.nz and look for Practitioner Guide to the Regulatory Changes for Certification of Gasfitting, the graph is on page two.
Now, ask me if I think any gas servicing person WILL issue a GSC for replacing a thermocouple or gas valve - and the answer is probably not. Ask me if I think the public will want to pay the service fee + the cost of a GSC - thereby probably doubling or trebling the cost of the initial job - and I will say - probably not. The Government have, with the sweep of a pen, increased HUGELY costs to consumers when the initial reasoning behind ALL of this given two years ago, was that they wanted to reduce costs to consumers and simplify everything for tradespeople.
I am still laughing, then choking, then crying. Some jumped up idiot wearing a suit with a tie that was too tight, sitting in an office overlooking the CBD in Wellington with nothing better to do - has dreamed up this scheme. I have no idea why, maybe they needed to keep their relation who worked in ESS in a job.
It just doesn't make any sense to any normal, practical person.
One thing I do know - with the Board like we have - it is better to always err on the side of caution. Maybe even flood the high risk data base with every scrap of gasfitting you do. See how their IT system and little men in suits cope with that. Peaceful protesting.
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This is about the easiest to understand document I have read , seems pretty clear that new installations are general gaswork so will not need to be entered on the high risk register , any subsequent work if it involves addition or alteration will need to be entered , seems a bit crazy to me , no one will know who has done the original install , how many owners are going to keep the GSC or pass it on to subsequent owners, Ive had plenty of customers ask me for certificates they have lost. The ESS consistently refers to consumer safety and streamlining certification , we will see
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I would also urge people to download the ACTUAL REGS and read them. There are some slight differences.
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not sure if anyone has the documentation from the MBIE? I think I may have even recieved it from the board! but in that under the heading "Gas Safety Certificate" it states that "for low risk work, only the GSC is required"
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I think the easiest way around all this is to go to uni, do a law degree and learn the lingo.
I mean this is why we all got into the trades eh, for lots of paper work and hard to understand legal instructions.
There are about four or five books to cross reference.
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Here you have it....
Please could you clarify whether the servicing or maintenance of an appliance warrant a GSC as it comes under low risk work?
Best Regards Paul Gee
Dear Paul
In short, all gasfitting requires a GSC. See information below.
Keith Rodgers
TECHNICAL OFFICER
Energy Safety, High Hazards & Specialist Services, Health & Safety Group
Ministry of Business, Innovation & Employment
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well thats good to know ::)
so much open to interpretation is going to lead to god knows how many contradictions...
what a mind F#%K of a mine field!
decided to check my insurance -
a policy that would be beneficial to all!!
Comprehensive cover:
Statutory – for example, you’re fined for not complying with statutory legislation even though it was unintentional
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So..... new installs are not registered with anyone, any more..... unless it is high risk or your adding to the existing install. Then you have to sign for the extension.....and you'll have no register to check who did the initial job, just a photo copy with an authentication water mark that anyone can down load. I am pretty sure you'll be inheriting the responsibility for the existing work, especially if the guy with the "authentic" photocopier who worked before you disappears.
And all places you go to will need a GSC, which means you will need to document and photograph every maintenance and service job and keep it all for seven years....because if you sign for it and someone changes it after you leave???.....well I been there and got the tee-shirt....the dirty bastards hid the forensic photos that proved it was changed....even the minister knows this....and still nothing happens (well, other than me anyway, I got firmly rooted).
When they audit you they will have to/want to go through all your documentation and have access to all your files....otherwise they won't know what to audit........they will want to come in your home (if you work from home) and sit in your office and go through your filing cabinet. If you don't agree to this intrusion and audit....no license.....with no license....you are now a criminal for working as a "cowboy".
What you going to charge for all this....remember it was brought in to save money.
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Hurt Locker Plumbing and Gas LTD.....working in a mine field close to you......
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Is there such a thing as a central register for Location Certificates? If not how do you find out if there is one (for the installation you might be about to work on)?
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So..... new installs are not registered with anyone, any more..... unless it is high risk or your adding to the existing install. Then you have to sign for the extension.....and you'll have no register to check who did the initial job, just a photo copy with an authentication water mark that anyone can down load. I am pretty sure you'll be inheriting the responsibility for the existing work, especially if the guy with the "authentic" photocopier who worked before you disappears.
And all places you go to will need a GSC, which means you will need to document and photograph every maintenance and service job and keep it all for seven years....because if you sign for it and someone changes it after you leave???.....well I been there and got the tee-shirt....the dirty bastards hid the forensic photos that proved it was changed....even the minister knows this....and still nothing happens (well, other than me anyway, I got firmly rooted).
When they audit you they will have to/want to go through all your documentation and have access to all your files....otherwise they won't know what to audit........they will want to come in your home (if you work from home) and sit in your office and go through your filing cabinet. If you don't agree to this intrusion and audit....no license.....with no license....you are now a criminal for working as a "cowboy".
What you going to charge for all this....remember it was brought in to save money.
your kidding me aye??? we do hundreds of gas jobs that are simple maintenance . and your saying we have to fill out a gsc for EVERYONE????
no way. that's another half hour for every job?? .......flame rod on a super ray...its going to cost the customer as much for the paer work as the bloody part!!!
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I have another question....do I have to issue a gsc for serving a gas fire?, I don't change anything, just pull it apart, clean it and reassemble, and test it.... gsc????.
and if the answer is yes, I am going to have hundreds of customers that are pist off as I will need to charge for the extra time and paper work, and I cant give gsc away for free!!! they take time and money .... I will be charging a fair amount, that I would love to tell you all but I don't believe I am allowed to do that!!!!!! ::)
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Hurt Locker Plumbing and Gas LTD.....working in a mine field close to you......
Cowboys and shonky handymen trading as CASH new business name please just write the check out ;D
This whole situation is just a big mind F**k :'( and will open the door to unregistered cowboys its time to seriously look for another trade or head home to Aussie.
What the F**k where they thinking ???
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So how much are all you honest law-abiding professionals going to charge for a GSC?.......or should I say how much of a discount are the cowboys going to take off?? $50-$60....Storing photos, and legal documents and not to mention a huge liability and extra time taken.
I can see it now...... how much for cash and no paper work.......gosh that's much cheaper than the last guy he was going to charge me tax, GST and GSC.....thank you Keemo Sabby......Tonto Plumbing and Gas Ltd .....your a bargain.
Hi Ho Silver away......
And don't forget if you do nothing wrong they will still ruin you anyway and risk the health of the public while they are at it......what a career, what an industry.
And when we all leave the industry that is being strangled.........the people backing this crap and bringing it in.......well they get to mop up all the profit.
If these goons think that a new house is expensive now....wait until they do it to all the other trades. You have been warned.
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Bowtie mate...if you can see it any other way, below, please let me know because this is going to kill the servicing...it will either stop the honest ones getting a service because of cost or the more shrewd ones getting it done for cheap. We either wear the cost or pass it on....what will that do either way?
It's hard enough to get people to service an appliance now, if your area is anything like mine its usually a breakdown/repair, not a regular "service".
Please could you clarify whether the servicing or maintenance of an appliance warrant a GSC as it comes under low risk work?
Best Regards Paul Gee
Dear Paul
In short, all gasfitting requires a GSC. See information below.
Keith Rodgers
TECHNICAL OFFICER
Energy Safety, High Hazards & Specialist Services, Health & Safety Group
Ministry of Business, Innovation & Employment
Look at the stunt that they pulled with illegally taking 2 million off us all......our guys go through all the proper channels for two years (might be more)......they retrospectively change the law......
Its their pitch, ref and rule book......
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Think on this......compare the income and future liability of......
the cashie guy....... and the legal guy.....on a service job of say $50......
Legal guy....... $50 job, a GSC of $50... all plus gst, = $115 (cost to customer) and then take off income tax of say 20%....= $92 income (for legal guy) with full liability (but you have contributed to the running of the country and the feeding of Rht Hon Williamson)
So customer pays $115 and the legal guy with full liability for at least 7 years..... pockets $92.
Cashie guy....no liability paper trail....charges $100 to customer....pays nothing toward the country....
The cash guy is cheaper to the customer and he pockets more.......
What do you think this will this promote? and don't forget no one finds out until there is an incident. More cowboys perhaps? that need the Board to chase after them? reaffirming the need for Board's existence? To chase these cowboys? Hmmmm......
And the guys who are promoting and backing this shit will have the ability to set the dogs (of the Board) on to their opposition whether they are working illegally or not, whether they are guilty or not (see my case)......and so they will get the lions share of the legal work...which they will charge handsomely for....because they have to pay huge compliance costs....because of all the cowboys out there being chased by the Board, which we are now funding for this Board to chase these cowboys.....and so the cycle continues until you have a small expensive set of legal plumbers and gasfitters, funding their own protection racket/stand over guys of the Board, to take out the opposition...legal or not.
Welcome to the future of our trade guys....only choice you have is to oust this now....or decide whether your new customers want fries with that burger or want to king size it.
What will this do to the cost of building and maintaining housing???
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So we will have astronomical prices for building and maintaining housing.
Even the suppliers should think on this, they might be getting a captive audience now with the CPD/advertising road shows....but, if they had some vision.....
When there is a monopoly and a small cabal firms left.....what do you think they will want to pay for their materials?
It started with the craftsman license, then self certification, now this bullshit.....mark my words, I have seen beneath their veil and seen them at their worst.
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Defn. Raketeering:
Traditionally, obtaining or extorting money illegally or carrying on illegal business activities, usually by Organized Crime . A pattern of illegal activity carried out as part of an enterprise that is owned or controlled by those who are engaged in the illegal activity.
Master Plumbers anyone?!?
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No..... its ok now..... all the illegality has been made legal....2 mill, wouldn't that be nice....
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I don't think the people that conceived this idea knew just what a bastard they were making - and the costs to the consumer. It is a joke. I would love to see the project leader stand up in front of practitioners now and justify why they had to bring this system in.
Badger - I love your comments re "would you like fries with that or king size it" becasue you have captured the possibilities so well. Gasfitters are walking around like stunned mullets at the moment as it all sinks in. We have started to do our first GSC's and COC's - I've put the prices up - and we will see what happens.
All queries around prices will be directed to ESS.
Perhaps Campbell Live need to revisit their story about increased prices to consumers - forget about charging like doctors and lawyers, let's charge like surgeons and judges!!
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hi guys, jax as Allan Day says:call it `our fee`and double the amount, cheers
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I've been discussing this today with the company I work for and you can tell that they haven't grasped the reality of the situation were in now and I know a lot of other tradesmen in the area who won't have a clue about doing a gas safety cert for servicing. You would think that this should be explained in great detail to all involved but from my own experience unless your a member of the federation or come on this forum people just ain't got a clue what's really going on and they seem to have there head in the sand whilst paying ever increasing costs.
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hi guys, yeah foggy that`s the way it has always been untill it just went too far, then someone said: hang on a minute this is just not right and so the Federation stepped up and got involved. you also got to remember that most guys working for a company basically do what the boss tells them too, they dont want to rock the boat for fear of their job and as you say get hit with ever increasing costs. I believe that the day will come when a lot of these guys will simply walk away to a job that is more rewarding and less stressfull, you`ve got to admit that there is a lot of hard work involved for the rewards that are offered,cheers
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I have thought hard and long as to what to do about this gsc for servicing work, we do a lot !! .
we have decided to gsc very thing we do and we WILL be charging cert level fees for the paper work,....we simply have no choice!! :( :( :( this WILL double the basic service $$$$
what we WILL be doing is with EVERY invoice we WILL be advising ALL our customers that if they feel they have been over charged to complain to ES.
would anyone know who I should direct my customers too ??? that would help no end.
personally.... I have had a guts full. I feel like a Muppet having my strings pulled..
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send them straight to Maurice
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what a complete dogs breakfast this has become, does the federation have templates for gas safety certs and the other certs needed now?
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Hi guys this is the federation one it covers both Gas Safety and Gas Compliance
Hope this helps
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So we are all agreed then, the only person this saves cost to, (with a total hand washing/shirking of responsibility), is the people who thought this up, with more cost and ultimate/total accountability on us...... and with ultimately more cost to the customer.
It is hard enough to get people to service their appliances now, in my area a "service" is what I would call a breakdown...because they only ring to get it going again, not to clean it and make sure its safe.
Just a question....isn't "the powers that be" meant to be responsible/accountable with a reasonable cost to run this situation.....because I was under the impression that was why they were there.....
Have they told the public about this cost and THAT WE HAVE TO ADD THIS COST.....or are they waiting for us to inform people when we go to their home........I don't know about you but I am fed up of the "how much it costs to be a tradesman" talk to customers to justify our bills.....everyone thinks I am loaded.....and when you are on the bones of your arse its quite frustrating. We have the compliance costs of a doctor with the wages of a mechanic. What costs do the guys who work on our cars have? A WOF is only good for the day it is written, people die in cars daily.
To explain our costs, perhaps Plumbing World can do a national advert telling every one how cheap their guys can do it......perhaps we could ask Peter Jackson to use his influence to get this ad up and running.......
Man I am so over this.......Corruption, incompetence and now this crap.....
Please can someone let me know why we need this again. Things are getting worse not better, every day.
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hi guys, Badger (We have the compliance costs of a doctor with the wages of a mechanic. What costs do the guys who work on our cars have?)my mechanic charges $75+gst, he is a mobile mechanic who comes to you and works at your place, no training for points for his job, and as you say lots of health and safety problems there(500 plus people dying every year on the roads),cheers
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Says it all Robbo mate....a WOF lasts as long as the day it is written......imagine a guy gets his breaks done......don't get them looked at for 6 years and then the breaks fail......is it the mechanics fault??? would they f**** that guys life over?
I was held accountable for a job that was 6 years old (as far as I know not maintained), that was proven to be altered (not by me) and then the Board withheld photos and evidence and that proved what I had said for the previous 2 years since the explosion (and much much more)........you are dreaming if you think this system will not bite you firmly in the arse......signing everything off will open you up to even more accountability......much more.....
Apparently I am meant to get over this, dust myself off and get on with my life......I got no money, my family live in a run down home and my business re-launch is struggling....perhaps the customers are believing all the lies that the Board sent to them....that prejudiced all the sites that they laid charges at, with a letter that said I was capable of illegality.
So it appears that, from what I have seen, the public are as ill informed as us.....if not totally ignorant of it.
Think on this....If they did a TV campaign and told everyone all at once about all this hidden cost and with no public register held by the powers that be.....well it is reasonable to think a bit of a public backlash could be possible, if not inevitable.
But if they break it to the public piece meal, one by one, by us telling them and dealing with the public's backlash customer by customer.......it will pass into "just how it is"...without so much as a murmur.
Not forgetting the gasfitter that won't/can't tell them about all this....because they either don't know or don't want the customer to know (so he can undercut the guy who is trying to do the right thing and follow the new protocol).
Who's up for telling the public about it all, all at once....I got $500 toward a $3000 national advert.....
If we play on their pitch, with their ref and their rule book (which only applies to us apparently).....what do you think will happen what has happened?
Lets take a leaf out of Plumbing Worlds book and go national and as public as poss......it is an election year coming up......
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.......and before any smart arse says you got no money but got money for an ad....I am living off the equity in my house....I have gone from 100% mortgage free to a 60% mortgage....when I lose the house and my family are on the street then it will get very messy....
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Now the IANZ has these concerns about Canterbury County Council..... Perhaps we could get IANZ to have a look at the new gas "safety" system......link for article below, comments and advise in red if they were to take the latest gas cert system direction.....to fix their wood fire consents problem......why is it of concern if a council behaves this way......but we are being told to behave this way.......
This is a bit of humour, it is not how I think it should be.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/8926835/How-did-CCC-consents-go-so-wrong
Reviews of CCC consents unit 2009-2013
IANZ June 2013
◦ Still concerns about solid fuel heater consent process. What's the difference in safety concerns between wood and gas, surely gas is more volatile?
◦No evidence of compliance with public information requirements. Its ok we can print our own off, actually anyone can, and keep it in their house.
◦No evidence of compliance with acceptance, vetting and lodgement of applications. You wanna see the gas system, we are to keep it all under the mattress for 7 years
◦Continuing doubts that consents granted comply with Building Act/Code. We'll find out after an incident
◦Not enough resources to process and issue consents in statutory timeframes. Just take illegally 2 million dollars and retrospectively make it legal later
◦No evidence of addressing old consents. lol
◦Unclear whether steps taken to ensure record of past inspections available on site. Just don't inspect them.... s'easy
◦Unclear whether proposed system for recording inspections outcomes electronically been actioned. Just stop using the electronic cert system, cos you have f****ed it up
◦No evidence concerns over provision of Code of Compliance certificates addressed. What evidence? just get someone elses details off the Board website use all their information and print off all the forms, with a water mark to make it look kosher
◦New system of chasing up old consents not shown to be working. Just don't have one
◦No competency assessments provided for verification. get a supplier to do a course on gutters and get free advertising....CPD
◦Staff still working outside of assessed competence. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, OH YES......
I find this quite confusing these are reasons of concern for a council's behaviour.....but we are being forced to do this.....is it just me or is this crazy?
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And these too are concerns for IANZ....just compare to the new system that we are to do.....
IANZ Sep 2012
◦Solid fuel heater process flawed and inspections not done.
◦Receipt documentation inadequate.
◦Delays of up to four days in allocating application to consents officer.
◦Work allocated to staff for whom no formal skills assessment recorded.
◦Wrong forms used.
◦Technical decisions inconsistent and unsatisfactory.
◦Statistics for application processing time inaccurate.
◦No reliable measurement of 20 day time limit.
◦Consents granted where scope of works unclear.
◦Decisions about compliance not well recorded.
◦Record of past inspections not available to inspector on site.
◦Competency assessments overdue.
◦Differing technical interpretations between teams.
◦Roles changed so often, unclear new roles understood.
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Now don't forget these consents should be installed by Tradesman, usually plumbers or LBP......
So how do we get lumbered with this latest load of crap......IF THESE ARE CONCERNS FOR A WOOD BURNER.....WHY DOESN'T IT APPLY TO GAS....BLOODY GAS FOR CHRISTS SAKE.
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Spoke to three gas fitters today, two work for companies and one self employed. Not one of them new about what certs need to be issued for what type of installation/maintenance work.
This really is gonna turn into a pile of shite where if you do it all correctly you'll be priced out of the market.
You would think that some kind of ad campaign is required so the public are aware of the changes and costs involved.
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Mate, there's no problem....until there is a problem.....
Nothing gets found out until someone complains or gets hurt....and if your in the clique you'll be fine, if you ain't.... your railroaded
Where's the protection for the public in all this?
Remember guys...ignorance of a law..... is no protection from the law.
I bet all the mates and cronies of the people bringing all this in know all about it.......hmmm funny that.
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FYI guys.....comments?
This information bulletin is intended to be read by licensed certifying gasfitters. It is guidance only and is not a substitute for a full knowledge of the Gas (Safety & Measurement) regulations 2010 (the regulations).
How has gasfitting certification changed?
Before 1 July 2013, gasfitting certification had to include a number of things. You had to describe what work had been carried out and you had to make a statement that the gasfitting work you carried out or supervised was compliant with the regulations.
Under the new Certificate of Compliance (CoC) requirements you must complete a statement that you are satisfied the work carried out is lawful, safe and is accurately described.
Under the old system, the certificate also included a statement from you that the gas installation was safe to connect and that the gasfitting you carried out did not make the other parts of the installation unsafe.
With the new Gas Safety Certificate (GSC), you are making a statement that you are satisfied that the connected gas installation (or part installation) is safe to use and that any work you have completed or supervised does not adversely affect the other parts of the installation.
Does a GSC need to be issued?
All gasfitting must have a GSC.
A GSC must be issued whether or not the gas supply was disconnected. Although regulation 52B talks about the person doing the connection must issue the GSC, regulation 52B(4) goes on to read that where the gas supply was not actually disconnected, the regulation should be read as though the person completing the work should issue the GSC.
All high risk and general work must also have a CoC (and is optional for low risk).
High risk work must be registered on the Energy Safety high risk database. The database is simply a register of some of the details of high-risk certification carried out. It is not the certification itself.
How do I determine the risk type?
Practitioners need to work through regulation 5A in order to determine which risk category their gasfitting work covers.
The regulation first defines what low risk work is. For instance, maintenance of a gas appliance is low risk work if it comprises gasfitting. For example, fitting new parts would be gasfitting, blowing out lint is not.
If what you are doing is not low-risk then you look at the high-risk list. The high-risk list includes alterations or additions to existing installations. New installations are not considered to be high-risk unless they are one of the eleven other types of high-risk work listed.
These eleven variations include such things as work on caravans with sleeping quarters (‘specified’ caravans); they also include work on a building of three storeys with three dwellings; and repairs after an accident.
Note that low-risk “trumps” high-risk. Maintenance in a caravan or a three storey building is low-risk.
If the work is not low or high-risk then it is general gasfitting.
What do I do if the installation I am certifying is unsafe?
The first thing to note is there is a significant difference between something that is non-compliant with the installation code and something that is unsafe. A non-compliant situation is not necessarily unsafe. The regulations list situations that are deemed to be unsafe. See regulations 11 to 14.
There is an existing obligation to advise the occupant and owner and then Energy Safety if you come across a situation that is immediately dangerous. Immediately dangerous is a situation where an unsafe condition could immediately present a hazard to life or property.
The new regulations also state there where you are proposing to issue a GSC and you are not satisfied that the connected gas installation is safe to use or you are not satisfied that the work you have completed does not adversely affect the other parts of the installation then you must disconnect the installation (or part installation) you are certifying.
This does not prevent you or another person fixing the fault before reconnecting but you may need to seek permission from the owner before continuing.
Can we use alternative standards to gain compliance?
The regulatory regime for gas installations has for some time allowed alternatives to the means of compliance provided in the installation standard, provided essential safety can be demonstrated to be met.
The recent amendments to the regulations that came into effect on 1 July 2013 do not change that. In fact, the amended regulations provide a formalised means for recognising alternatives through Certified Designs as specified in regulation 43.
The relevant regulations are 9, 11 – 13, 43 and 44.
Again alternatives can be used, but....and this is where I have a problem with all this.....its all down to our interpretation of the regs, what we believe to be safe or not.....but its isn't until you get to a court room or a hearing that you can get an opinion or direction. Remember what happened to me when I used an alternative source of information.....which I could later prove performance by means of a British Standard to be right.......
How much are you going to build in to your rates to cover these lawyers fees now?
The guy I have been dealing with seems helpful and friendly.....I find it interesting that the removal of lint is not gasfitting......but is removing a burner to clean properly and then replacing ...is that gasfitting?
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Hi All,
A word of further caution among your discussion.
Please be VERY WARY of advice from ESS; they are NOT the judge, jury and executioners in all this mess. Their role in this change is ONLY to maintain the new High Risk database in addition to their pre-1 July duties. They have no legal obligation to provide correct or binding information other than these roles.
Getting something contradictory to the Regulations from ESS, even in writing, will not protect you in the event of the Board pursuing prosecution.
If you have questions about the new Regulatory requirements, I would strongly advise you to contact the Board. They have generally been quite helpful to me in regards to the changes.
Thanks,