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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10871899&ref=rss
Interested in comments on this..
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Got heaps mate, what do you want to know...have a look on here for posts from Badger
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Hi Ed.
My comments are that if this bill gets made into law then demoracy is dead in New Zealand and we have a bunch of politicians who don't have the guts to stand up for what is right. Do the crime do the time.
I believe Williamson is misleading the public of New Zealand with his comments and it should cost him his job. Hopefully the likes of the Federation will be able to show the country what is really happening.
Look around the world where people are getting sick of shit from politicians so don't get too comfortable that it won't happen here because we follow everything else that goes on.
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Chill out Watchdog no violence in the streets YET but I can see what you mean. People only take so much before they snap and that tolerance level is less now.
ED I've attached a photograph of my thoughts.
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I guess the question needs to be asked, how many prosecutions of the unqualified "cowboys" have gone ahead and with what results?
If the Board has a statutary obligation to prosecute, where do the funds come from?
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Hi Ed
Well Ed the Boards Annual report last year showed they took 13 to court from that year and 8 from the year before.
So they collected $639,000 from us for offences and dealt with 21 through the courts. Hey that's on average of $30,428.57 each. The fines these people get are on average about $2,100
Now the Boards statutory authority to prosecute is somewhat questionable in the act states "Institute prosecutions against people ......... I believe the Act doesn't give the Board power to appoint an investigator so the chances are pretty good the Act meant for the Board to complaint to a TA or energy safety or building and housing group.
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Hi Ed
Don't get confused with people being annoyed and actively speaking out against this Amendment Bill and practitioners not wanting unlicensed people prosecuted. Every licensed practitioner that has had to pay a lot of money for their apprenticeship, their exams, and then their licence, and then pays yearly for upskilling wants to see people that operate illegally in this arena punished. We want the Bob Smith's that decide to masquerade as plumbers, gasfitters or drainlayers prosecuted and fined heavily.
However the reason that the public need to be protected from the Bob Smith's of this world is the damage they can do, not only to that person's house or building but to the public health. Incorrect sanitary plumbing could lead to a whole town's water supply being contaminated. Poor and dangerous gasfitting could lead to explosions etc. This is why they are regulated trades.
So the need to prosecute is for the "greater good" and therefore should be a burden carried by the tax payer. Despite what the Minister said about other occupational licensing bodies paying disciplinary and offences fees - he is wrong - this is not the case in most fields. I am not sure who is feeding him this information but it simply isn't true. The money could come from the tax take, there could be an additional fee put on resource consents, some of the gas levy collected on gas bills that we all pay could be re-directed. The electricians pay just over $94 a year to licence - complete and no other charges. In fact their regulatory board are looking at saving even more money by going to two yearly licensing and reducing it to $120 for two years. They don't pay additional disciplinaryand offences levies or fees. Nor do Licensed builder practitioners.
The Board have arrogantly gone about collecting this despite being told it was illegal - this in itself is despicable. It is also arrogant. The Board are not wise spenders - in fact I think they could be accused of being wastrels with our money. This Board have lawyers in their employ, they have the department of building and housing advisers at their disposal, and they have the Minister on side - and yet they still get it wrong - so wrong. A small group of pracitioners have caught them out time and again - you'd think they would engage their services as consultants instead of the ones they are using becasue clearly they could save themselves a fortune.
There has been no olive branch to industry - no apologies for the endless mistakes - no instead they "run to daddy" to make it all better - and daddy does his best. But is his best going to be good enough this time - I think not. Instead what we see is a badly drafted amendment to try and patch a gaping wound.
The number of prosecutions of non licenced people tells me we don't have a huge problem - 13 in a year is not some tsunami of illegallity - the tsunami of illegallity comes from the PGDB itself. And when you look at the lists of experience this Board is meant to have in the governance arena you have to ask yourself how dysfunctional they must be to make such massive cockups.
No, the Board should have followed the recommendations of the Ombudsman and met with industry, paid back the $600k and tried to work things out going forward. An apology wouldn't have gone amiss either.
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Ed they are corrupt too, and treat people as though they are guilty and then have prove themselves innocent, while they ignore their own rules and natural justice, please see below a history of what happened to me....funded with the very same illegally gotten monies, ITS NOT JUST HOW THEY TAKE IT, BUT WHAT THEY DO WITH IT WHEN THEY GET IT.....ALL KNOWN TO UNCLE MAURICE.
Please take the time to read, it is how they savaged my family....
Read it and ask yourself .....can these people be trusted with an open cheque book?
My story is but one of many, far too many for it to be a one off. I know and have met people from the top of the North Island all the way down to the bottom of the South Island with similar stories; most are too scared to come forward.
Most of the evidence that I rely on in my claims below actually appear in the bundles for my hearings, but are ignored, along with blatant conflicts of interest, even to this day by those at the Board and secretariat.
I have also told Maurice Williamson about my situation and am appalled that he now wants to pass this bill to legalise such incompetence and prior dodgy dealing, I am astounded that he now asks you to get the Board of the hook and perhaps himself because he has known about this situation for some time, plenty of time to have fixed this before rushing it through Parliament.
Concerns.
I have some grave concerns about this Board and its conduct. My points below and, this is far from exhaustive and are but an example of how the Board spends the illegal funds it has raised.
The Board have over a million dollars in reserve, they would not cease to function because of the loss of this illegal revenue, and besides have had plenty of time to address this.
My hearing raised more questions than were answered and cost the Board over $200 000.00 to hold. It cost me my home and business. I have spent the last two years working away from home, my wife and two sons, one Board member asked whether I had considered returning to the UK or going to Australia, when I told him the effect they had had on me and my family.
These unanswered issues, which I would be happy to provide information/evidence to give my claims substance, probably involve fraud, hiding incomplete safety certs at the site an explosion and huge covered up conflicts of interest, a lawyer would know best, but I can’t afford one. The Board to this day ignores all this, even though I have told them, repeatedly. I find in light of this behaviour to claim to want to alter the Act to enable them to carryout their duty to protect the health and safety of the public contradictory and hypocritical at best, an out right lie at worst.
I had child sexual abuse case notes sent to my house, read by my wife, this was by far the worst thing that happened and had the most effect on my wife, but apparently this is common practice amongst lawyers, as per the Board. They sent 3 such cases of this vile content to push their argument on probabilities.
I lost my home, business and reputation due to inflammatory letters being sent to my customers. My business and reputation failed not long after, my books reflect this.
Even though I was found 95% innocent, with nothing at the exploding chipshop accountable to me, and have a British Standard that clears the remaining 5% of charges, Mr Allan Bickers, member of IPENZ, along with Tony Hammond the “Impartial” Investigator, released a press release saying I lacked fundamental knowledge of my trade. Mr Bickers was present at my hearing and is the present chair of the Board. At my recent Board prescribed punishment, of a retraining in a unit standard, the assessor said I would be in the top 10% of any of the people he had ever trained. This course had to be custom made at my expense.
Gary Jones, the plumber/gasfitter mentioned in the damming OAG report, has received very poor treatment, his long suffering wife has had to have a double bypass for her heart, she told me herself it was because of a decade of stress inflicted by the Board, and to show how they operate her son’s apprenticeship was dissolved on the whim of a tamtruming deputy chair of the Board, Peter Jackson.
I think Kern Uren reflected the Board’s opinion to this OAG report quite clearly when he referred to the report, in front of witnesses, as “just one mans opinion, which he was entitled to”, this was when Gary asked about why he hadn’t got his licence yet, even though the report Gary appears in backed Gary’s position. He also said to Gary that for as long as he was deputy registrar Gary would never get his licence. Gary still does not have his licence to this day.
There is much much more. That is why I believe that a Public Enquiry is long over due.
History
I started at Allgas in late Feb 2003, for the first 4 or 5 months I was oblivious to the others workmanship and trade knowledge. Believing that, as a member of the many Gas Groups (that John Darnley let me know he was apart of, numerous times ) and with his being a licensed Craftsman Gasfitter, John Darnley (the Manager and once owner of Allgas) knew what he was doing and had good intentions. I was told right at the start that I was to fill out the work sheets only, and the office staff (mostly John’s Family) would fill out the certs and “all I had to do was sign them” they would them fill them in and file them, the only thing in my handwriting on these certs is my signature.
After about 5 months I became very concerned about how the work was being carried out, I knew it was unsafe and the frequency I came across dodgy work and customers stories while on site, really concerned me. I tried to address it with Allgas but was shot down every time by John Darnley and his family who ran Allgas with him. It came to a head on 6th November 2003 in an argument with Dave Bergman (John’s son in law). They were attempting to force me to install a califont against the advice of the large writing on the appliance box. I had only been there for just over 8 months. I was also told around this time to use poker face and make out I knew what I was doing. I was told this by John Darnley when I asked for a specification on a dangerous install (which later was installed, all told to the Board but no action taken).
10th November 2003 I had a meeting with John Darnley and a representative of Shell gas (Warren something), where I submitted a statement outlining my concerns. Shell had taken over Allgas before I joined, buying it from John Darnley and keeping him on as general manager, he was basically still in charge of Allgas Nelson.
13th November 2003 I was given a written warning by John Darnley, for expressing my concerns about safety to the boss’s son in law. I had shouted with frustration, having many times over the recent weeks trying to express my worries about safety concerns. My immediate reply to receiving this written warning was to tell John Darnley in no uncertain terms I would be leaving; he could not have been under any impression other than that I was going to leave as soon as I was able. I could not just up and leave immediately as I had very recently signed up for a mortgage.
The very day after, on 14th November, someone at Allgas ordered 4 books of non transferable gas certs in my name (first and only time) without my knowledge and paid for them with an Allgas credit card. This is later ok’d, after the explosion, as per the Boards Kern Uren (acting Registrar) and Tony Hammond (the Board appointed “Impartial” investigator).
19th November I give my two weeks written notice and leave employment. (My written resignation is dated 19/12/03 which is a typo and this is confirmed by my actual leaving date of 2/12/03 of the same letter). I had wanted to sort out some other work before leaving Allgas.
I went to work as a subcontractor at Rockgas early December and immediately (on my first day) started becoming aware of improper use of gas certs in my name, from my time at Allgas. I contacted the PG&D Board in December 2003 by phone (which was when I became aware of the 4 books ordered in my name by Allgas) and by then by letter on 6th Jan 2004 about my concerns about this improper use and the ordering of the four books mentioned above.
I was fobbed of by letter from the then Registrar with a letter, some of it had incorrect/misleading information about the four books of certs ordered in my name (the cert numbers of the 4 books did not correspond to the actual ones ordered in my name, I had no way of checking this as I didn’t order them or have them in my possession).
4th March 2004, nearly 3 months after I leave Allgas, someone writes to the Board, acting in my name to alter the address of a cert on Allgas letter head, I knew nothing of it at the time, only finding out much later after the explosion, which was when I told the Board, they said I was being vexatious for bringing it up.
A year later on 10th Jan 2005 I went to a job site that apparently according to the cert, I had signed off someone unknown to me, something I have never done not even to this day. I was called to the address for, ironically, a gas leak on work that went against best practice. I am pretty sure that the cert was one of the four books ordered in my name.
I contacted a lawyer (the Board refused to talk to me without one) on the 13th Jan 2005 to assist me in to getting to the bottom of this very confusing (to me any way) situation.
I also contacted Allgas which had a new Manager, a Tony Hunter, on the 24 January 2005. I told him I was happy to check all the sites but couldn’t do it for nothing and would have to cover the cost of my time and travel, it went no further.
The outcome of the lawyer’s investigation into this so far, was there were over a 1000 certs in my name and it would cost $25.00 per cert to check. I could not afford this potential sum of $25,000.00 and told them so by phone. The letter from the Board’s lawyer has inconsistencies and incorrect facts. It was written by a Belinda Greer, remember that name. She stated that the certs were correctly filled in….I later found out some were missing the test result entry for gas leaks.
This one set of correspondence alone, two letter and a fax, cost $349.97, I had a young family and could not afford to pursue. I thought a phone call would be sufficient to alert a conscientious industry Board about safety concerns.
I kept coming across dodgy work and as I couldn’t afford to address it the only way the Board would allow, I went to Nick Smith National MP on the 24th May 2006, resulting in a letter written to the Board dated 6th June 2006. I received no reply to this letter.
I sent a fax to a then Board member David Coxhead on the 21st August 2006, outlining my concerns and asking after the Nick Smith letter, no reply.
I then contacted Dr Cullen Labour MP by email on the 5th Sept 2006, I stated that I had “serious concerns for the health and safety for the people in my area” in an email.
I received a reply on the 12th September 2006 passing my concerns on to Damien O’ Connor Minister for Safety and Health.
I received a reply from Damian O’Connor on the 12th September 2006. It Stated that he would look into it, I received no other contact.
During this time, my eldest son (at the time only son) was diagnosed with being born without a fontanel (cranial syntosis) and had to have major surgery to his skull, twice. Also my mother was at the same time dumped on my door step after 35yrs of marriage, by my father, which highlighted her unknown until then emphersymia. My personal problems took over and I had neither the will nor energy to pursue this any longer myself, everyone I had contacted hadn’t done anything except Dr Smith, but even that appeared to be a dead end as far as I was aware. This very draining and trying period for my family covered from late 2005 to early 2009.
9th April 2009 a chipshop explodes nearly killing some one. The fact that the offending hose was changed once before and had been cut was ignored by the investigator; he said to the owner that he didn’t want to know. Photos that later surfaced at the hearing, taken by the forensic professional utilised by the police, showed what I had said for the previous two years were correct. The “ impartial ” investigator was in possession of them and never showed me them.
Nine days after the explosion at the chip shop, the owner of the chip shop’s lawyer requests all copies of gas certs for that address. One copy, for a pizza oven fitted a year after the initial install (by John Darnley) is denied to have been registered to the Board by John Darnley. This is as per Belinda Greer (see above for her name mentioned before); the Board still stick to this statement right up to today, even though a copy is available on the Boards electronic register. All carbon copies available show the test results for any gas leaks empty. Basically if the Board had, and I believe they did, receive this copy of the cert….they accepted a “safety” certificate for an untested install, untested for leaks….at the site of an explosion.
May 2009 John Darnley resigns from the New Zealand Institute of Gas engineers. (of interest Tony Hammond (the “impartial” investigator) is a fellow of NZIGE and Stephen Parker puts in his appologies for not being able to attend certain NZIGE meetings, along with other gas groups along with Darnley and is the man responsible for granting him full craftsman status after just one oral exam).
Tony Hammond is appointed as an “impartial” investigator. I came forward of my own free will and had several interviews. He brought to one a stack of the certs issued in my name; it was done on pink paper, with plain black ink….hiding the multitude of different colour inks on the certs. I was denied access to these certs 3 times, both before and after the explosion.
Tony Hammond not only granted John Darnley his craftsman ticket after just one oral exam (no apprenticeship done) but was also highly involved with several gas groups with John Darnley and was responsible for writing the contradictory gas reg and deregulating the gas industry. I tried to complain about this at an impartiality hearing and again was shot down.
2nd October 2009, 6 letters are sent to my customers (the same addresses that resulted in a charge), without my knowledge, implying that I am involved with the illegal issuing of certs in the upper North Island by Kern Uren the, at the time, Acting Registrar. It is a place I had not until then even visited. My business disappeared pretty much over night from this point onwards. This same person Kern Uren phoned me and threatened me and ignored the fact that I had produced 3 certs that had been added to after signing, evident by the writing present on the master copy but not on the carbon copies, and dismissed the letter written in my name 3 months after leaving Allgas, see above, he called me vexatious in a letter for doing so.
I was found to have been disadvantaged by these letters by the Boards own complaints QC, but am still waiting for any action or apology. I only found out about them when the local Motueka High school contacted me, Motueka WAS my main centre of business and the only high school in the area. The letters covered all the areas of my business; from the West Coast to Havelock, with Nelson and Motueka in between….this I believe was not a coincidence.
Lots happened and I can list a lot and prove a lot, but it is suffice to say that I was lied to and about and basically set up and made a scapegoat with huge conflicts of interest that were ignored, even after I brought them to light.
I had up to this time employed a lawyer at a cost of well over $10,000.00 but when I was told by him to “plead guilty and pay the $50 000.00 fine and open a café”. I stopped using his services and started represented my self, along with the immeasurable and free help of Wal Gordon and the Plumbers Federation, who have put in an immense effort on my behalf.
I complained at an “impartiality” hearing on the 22nd Feb 2010. Listing all my concerns, it was dismissed. Apparently it is OK to decide that you yourself are impartial.
I then attended a disciplinary hearing May 2011, where evidence was with held, witnesses refused to sign their own statements and it was overseen/chaired by Stephen Parker who is on the secretariat of GANZ, member of NZIGE and runs the Kennedy trust and other gas groups along with Tony Hammond, who is not an Impartial investigator.
I was found in this Kangaroo court 95% innocent of any wrong doing and only found guilty of one out of 44 charges, for fitting a califont using alternative reference material to the NON mandatory gas regs…gas regs that were co- written by Tony Hammond, my adducing in high court the very relevant British standard was disallowed, of note the only other certifying gasfitter in the hearing was Scottish. The charges were changed two days out, re-hashed to better fit the evidence and were full of lies.
Tony Hammond himself at the hearing, said if the fumes were not entering the building then I had adhered to the mandatory part one of the standard, the owner of the building said he hadn’t once had any problems or concerns and thought it was the only obvious place to install it. I also have an email from another co-author of the gas regs saying I can use a British standard; he is also a technical adviser for the Building and Housing dept.
In looking into this I found a cert in John Darnley’s name on the paper copy for an address in Blenheim, the electronic register puts it in my name. I told the Board about this, the Boards electronic register now carries a disclaimer stating that the electronic copy may not represent the true paper copy, the paper copy over rides it and is the legal copy.
In light of this legal clarification and disclaimer, I requested 150 certs, true colour copies from the Board, some of them from the four Books of certs ordered in my name. 11 of this test batch were claimed not to be in the possession of the Board (in exactly the same manner as the “pizza oven” cert at the exploding chipshop). But when I went to the gas supplier and photographed their copies, these 11 “missing” certs had the test results empty also (remember the pizza oven cert for the site of the explosion had similar missing information). When I told the Board about the photos, they miraculously found the copies, the missing information of testing on some of these copies were highlighted with highlight pen and so were beyond doubt noticed by someone, in all probability someone at the Board.
My punishment for is to do a retraining course to gain my licence early March 2013; the course has to be custom made for me, at my expense, because the course prescribed by them didn’t exist. The Board are in all intents and purposes are enforcing the NON mandatory part of the NZ gas regs. They boast of a 100% conviction rate, a statistical improbability, if not impossibility.
I was told at this retraining that I would be in the top 10% of people he had ever trained.
Nearly 4 years after the explosion, that I spent 6 years trying to warn that such a situation might happen, I am still waiting to see if I can up lift my licence for this coming period, and no one was held accountable, or even questioned, for the exploding chipshop or all the dodgy certs and faulty gas cert system.
Are these the type of people you want to give an open cheque book to by amending the Act?
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This is so frustrating....how is anyone in the trades suppose to prosper from the hard work we all do with these suits taking a huge illegal bite out of our ass every year and possibly now getting away with it!!! Its ludicrous. The message they are sending is break what ever law you want and try talk your way out of it later.
Not much point being licensed under the act if they can break the same act when ever they like and get changes made to make illegal notices legal. Not to mention the theft from practitioners. I have said it before and I will say it again. The Plumbers Gasfitters Drainlayers Board are modern day mafia in suits. They dont rob with stick ups and fully automatic weapons anymore, thats old school. They rob with laws and act and regulations as there weapon of choice.
I want a photo with the Amendment Bill sign !!! Could be a huge turning point in my life, might as well mark the occasion ???
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What happened to you Badger was in my opinion the "Board" at their worst.
Biggest stitch up in NZ Plumbing Gasfitting And Drainlaying history....period.
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Just reading an article on Stuff Titled Quake-prone buildings policy looking shakey.
Williamson has made another great statement: "I can give an absolute watertight assurance we still don't know where we're going to land on this stuff, and the public are the ones who are going to take us to whatever landing strip this is going to be"
What the hell does that mean?
If I could put him on a plane to a landing strip I would make sure it was Siberia. (He would have to let his hair down to keep his shoulders warm though.) No return flight.
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God they're funny, water tight, lol...minister of leaky buildings....PMSL
I'll pay your flight Maurice, feck I'll even build the landing strip......as long as its in Kabul. What a tosser.
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hi guys, someone has got it right:- cheers
Labour's Raymond Huo attacked Mr Williamson's use of retrospective legislation, noting allegations that it was being used to protect the board from legal action and prevent the industry from recovering money illegally taken from it.
"This bill is nothing more than a cynical exercise by the minister ... to cover his mistakes of the past."
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hi guys/Good sign Wal, you are putting an amazing effort for our trades to bring fairness for us all, i believe that minister williamson has made it personal to cover all the rubber stamping without being concerned about the content untill he`s realised that it is all his fault and he may lose his job if he cannot hoodwink his uninformed colleagues that he is right,cheers
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Hi Guys, have you had any luck hearing back from your local MP's?
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hi guy/Plumber, yes here is a few, lol. cheers
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Dear correspondent
On behalf of Hon Steven Joyce thank you for your email.
While the Minister considers all correspondence to be important and all messages are carefully read and considered, it is not possible to provide a personal response to every email which is received.
Where the Minister has portfolio responsibility for the issues that you have raised, your correspondence will be considered and responded to where appropriate.
Regards
on behalf of
Hon Steven Joyce
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The bill will be referred to a select committee. I suggest you make a submission..
Ross Robertson MP
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I am writing on behalf of David Shearer , Leader of the Labour Party, to acknowledge your email.
Thanks for writing
Dinah Okeby
Office of David Shearer MP
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Good morning
Thank you for your email which I will pass on to David for his information.
Kind Regards
Deb Thornton
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Just a thought.
I wonder if Wal gets any replies from his friends in Parliament. Keep it up Wal I'll still be your friend.
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hi guys,The Boards web site says,:-
...cheers
The Government will attempt to amend the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Act 2006 to validate the disciplinary levy and offences fee, and clarify the Board's authority to impose levies.
“It has always been the Government's intention that the Board's prosecution function would be funded by the industry. This is how all other boards in the building and construction sector operate,” Mr Williamson says. (wrong)
“The industry benefits from maintaining high standards and stopping unqualified people putting the public at risk (the industry US. provides those standards for the good of the PUBLIC) and taking work from skilled tradespeople. The Board’s prosecution and disciplinary functions play a key role in that process.”
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hi guys, more reply`s,cheers
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Your email has been received, thank you for contacting Tracey Martin MP, Spokesperson for Communications & IT, Education, Research, Science & Technology, Women’s Affairs, & Youth Affairs.
I will view your email and take any action as required, as soon as I am able. Should your message require me contacting you please do include your contact telephone number.
Tracey Martin MP
New Zealand First
...
Thank you for your email. Due to the volume of correspondence received it may not be possible for me to send you a personal response, however you may rest assured that all incoming emails are read, and I will endeavour to respond to all enquiries within my portfolio areas in as timely a manner as possible.
Richard Prosser MP
New Zealand First List MP based in Rangiora
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Kia ora,
Thank you for your email. We attempt to respond to all emails we receive.
If the matter is urgent please contact my Executive Assistant Sarah Cole on Sarah.Cole@parliament.govt.nz or 04 817 6764.
Nga mihi,
Denise
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Kia ora,
Thank you for your email. Because of the very high volumes of messages that I receive, your email may not be responded to immediately.
Alternatively, if your email is regarding another Green MP's portfolio, I will forward onto them to respond.
Naku noa, na
Steffan Browning MP
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Kia ora,
Thank you for your email. Because I receive a large amount of email correspondence, I can't always respond directly. I will read your message and take any required action as soon as possible. Where appropriate I may pass on your message to one of my colleagues.
Best wishes,
Holly Walker
Green MP
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I got loads of read recipts, but one lady responded straight away and seems a nice person, see below....
Thanks Paul. I remember your case and was very sorry about it. I hope you are recovering.
Thank you for this information. I will read it with interest.
Regards
Maryan Street.
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Just got my report for the "re-training" that the Board prescribed as my "rehabilitation".....so I sent Max an email just today...corrupt and nepotistic tossers got to go, no credabiltiy and I know what people I know call those that take money illegally.... theives.
Max,
Please see copy of the report, which I passed with a 90% pass rate. You will notice it is an assessment. I didn’t study for it either. The assessor actually said I was in the top 10% of people he had ever assessed.
Now when you add this to my 95% innocence at the Board’s kangaroo court, presided over by Stephen Parker (GANZ, Kennedy trust, NZIGE) who is the good friend of Tony Hammond, also of GANZ, Kennedy trust, NZIGE and actually nominated for the co-authorship of the contradictory NZ5261 by GANZ. The same kangaroo court attended by Allan Bickers on the panel who is a member of IPENZ along with Mr Hammond. And with the British Standard blowing the other 5% of charges out the window, which was ignored by the Board’s panel, where the only other certifying gasfitter in the room was the Board’s Scottish member Mr Hardie. You got to admit that the Board got it so very wrong.
Do you Allan Bickers feel I lack knowledge in the fundamentals of my trade? I think you should review your course on the “role of the expert witness”,look at conflicts of interest for example and perhaps ethics.
Well I don’t know how you feel about it all, but I feel a bit miffed by the Board’s mis-spending of $200 000.00 to persecute me (using illegally gained funds) and ignoring some real important issues that were raised at my hearing….and still you haven’t looked at these issues or investigated them. Isn’t fraud an offence? I tried to warn about all this years before the explosion.
How do you rate the Board’s competency Max? Some CPD in ethics might not be a bad idea.
This is far from over for me, I have only just started trying to get this looked at, I asked you a long time ago Max, are you willing to fall on your sword for the wrong doings of your predecessors?
Now, do us all a favour….. so I can run an advert so as I can feed my family. Just two questions for you Max……
Where is my apology for the defamatory letters sent by that incompetent Kern Uren, the ones that ruined my business, it has been months and months since Helen Cull found in my favour?
Can I uplift my licences this year? Yes or No. You have all you need for an answer right in front of you, in this email. As you like to rush things along, as in what the Board have done to legalise their illegality, I can expect an answer in the morning?
Oh by the way…… every one I have asked, and there are a lot, politicians included, have without exception said that the Board’s views on the ethics behind sending child sexual abuse case notes to my home, unmarked so as my wife read them, well deplorable and despicable and nothing short of warped…..one said he was surprised I hadn’t gone postal over it. I just replied that I never would because of my wife.
See you at the public enquiry.
Paul Gee Plumbing & Gas Ltd
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I sent it to Bickler to....heil Bickler
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News Flash A very informative ending.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A bus ride into New York City turned into a horror show for passengers suddenly swarmed by an invasion of cockroaches that forced the driver to pull over and evacuate the vehicle.
Cockroaches began emerging about 15 minutes after the bus departed from Atlantic City, New Jersey, last Friday morning, a spokesman said.
The driver soon pulled over and the 48 passengers scuttled off the infested bus to wait for a replacement vehicle.
Cell phone photos showing armies of cockroaches scampering over the seats and floor were posted by local media outlets, supplied by passengers on the bus.
"We apologise for this inconvenience and have spoken with each passenger regarding this incident," Tim Plunger, a spokesman for a the bus company said.
"Currently, our team is investigating the situation. We can inform our valued customers it was not cockroaches but Maurice Williamson and the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board from New Zealand attempting to escape extermination in their own country. New Zealand MAF has been contacted regarding its lapse of security protocols.
The company said it had refunded the passengers' fares and that they arrived without further incident in New York City in the afternoon.
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hi guys,more replys, blah,blah,blah,cheers
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Thanks for your comment,
Tis sort of retrospective legislation is unusual as it lets an organisation which has done something wrong get off scot-free. The select committee process is a chance for those who are disenchanted with the PGD Board to express their views about the situation. I urge you to make a submission and come along and have your say.
Regards,
Andrew Little
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Good afternoon
Thank you for your email. I will pass your message on to Mr Peters for his information.
Kind regards
Anne Moore
Executive Assistant
New Zealand First
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hi guys, part of the master plumbers submssion of the boards fees review dated. 9.october 2012.
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When compared to EWRB, the PGD Board’s personnel costs appear out of balance at $1,324.121 as at 31st March 2012, compared with $1427, 000 for EWRB. If this is calculated against the number of practitioners, the PGD Board spent $104 per practitioner, with EWRB spending $34.00
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full submission attached
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From the NZ herald....
But it argues the legislation is necessary. Otherwise industry regulator the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board would face financial ruin, leaving consumers at the mercy of unregistered and unscrupulous operators
And who let it get that far? who didn't act months and months ago? who tried to ignore the law?......same bloke who is now going to make what is illegal, legal..... and bail out his incompetent charges, because if he don't he looks bad, well I think that horse done a runner about the time he stood by and watched these clowns try to hold on to their tax dodge of being a charity....you couldn't make this shit up....clowns.
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Does Williamson think hes smarter tan the Ombudsman? From NZ Herald today:
Williamson snubs OmbudsmanBy Adam Bennett Email Adam 5:30 AM Tuesday Mar 19, 2013
Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson has thumbed his nose at public watchdog the Ombudsman by refusing to refund hundreds of thousands of dollars in illegally gathered industry levies to plumbers and other tradespeople.
Mr Williamson is already under fire for fast-tracking legislation to retrospectively legalise the collection of the money which was used by industry regulator the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board to chase "cowboys" out of the industry.
But on Friday, the day after Mr Williamson's bill was fiercely debated in Parliament, Ombudsman David McGee released his final opinion and recommendations on a complaint he received about the board's "disciplinary levy".
Mr McGee upheld Wellington plumber Wal Gordon's complaint that the fee was illegal and he estimated the amount illegally collected by the board between July 2010 and January 2012 at $600,000.
Mr McGee recommended that the board should negotiate an arrangement "whereby the excess levies paid could in whole or in part be refunded over a period or some credit could be given in respect of future fee or levy payments in compensation".
But Mr Williamson yesterday dismissed Mr McGee's recommendation.
"I think the Ombudsman's Office is wrong. The board would be technically insolvent if they had to pay this money back," he said.
By Adam Bennett
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But Mr Williamson yesterday dismissed Mr McGee's recommendation.
"I think the Ombudsman's Office is wrong. The board would be technically insolvent if they had to pay this money back," he said.
So if you need the money, you can take it illegally....and ignore the top lawyers of the land......Maurice you are a clown.
So if I use Maurice Williams take on all this, when the Board ruined my business with defamatory letters that implied that I had issued certs illegally, in a place I had never even been to.....well I could go rob a bank or burgle someones house....because I needed the f****ing money.....but I didn't because I for one respect the law of the land.....utter cock.
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Williamson's opinion doesn't surprise me - he is backed in to a corner - he's defended this Board time and again when they have made mistakes - he is as invested in them as they are in him - he has no where to go but to fight for them - that or he looks like a failure. Well if it quacks like a duck and it waddles like a duck - 99% of the time it's a duck.
Big call Mr Williamson to say the Ombudsman got it wrong. And the RRC got it wrong too? How about the OAG - wrong as well? My goodness just as well we have you in Parliament looking after us or where would we all be - because for some strange reason we think you got it wrong - and the rest of these learned people - coupled with some astute plumbers - got it righ
Proposal for the next TUI ad board -
Minister Williamson: The Ombudsman got it wrong! YEAH RIGHT
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Jax, when you list all the people who have got it "wrong", in Maurice's eyes anyway.........well its astounding....
How many influential/educated people is he going to offend just to protect his baby......see ya Maurice. 8)
Minister of Leaky Buildings, PMSL.
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hi guys, ("I think the Ombudsman's Office is wrong)!!!!
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The country does not need an`OMBUDSMAN` we have got Maurice Williamson, cheers
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Hmmm and does he wear his undies on the outside of his pants too aka Superman?
;)
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I feel sorry for him being led up the garden path treated like a mushroom....kept in the dark and fed bullshit....
Maurice.... have a good look around you and see who are the people who are filling your head with nonsense..........they are looking after themselves.........at your expense.
Maurice you are loosing credibility hand over fist, legalising illegal actions, telling the Ombudsman, Regulation Review Committee, Auditor General.....and soon the select committee that they got it wrong and that you and your little pal Bickers are right......
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Hi Robbo, wow! i cant manage to get one reply! Are you swearing in your emails???
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hi plumber, you have to do volume, i wrote one email and then copy/paste the whole lot of M.Ps.eads into it,try that,cheers
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hi plumber, you have to do volume, i wrote one email and then copy/paste the whole lot of M.Ps.eads into it,try that,cheers
yes - once the dodgy feckers see that others are copied in they realise they have to at least respond for fear of being outdone by others...
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Guys, I really feel that we are finally getting some real momentum and traction, we should go for broke now, as much publicity as possible, a show of strength and numbers and broadcast all the shit we have been dealt.
All the hard work that the Federation have put in to get this, this far, needs to be recognised by your actions and efforts, these guys have put in years and years to get to this point....whats an email to your MP in comparison, its for OUR industry.
One thing is for sure....... an opportunity like this don't come about often...........Jesus, its never happened before.........Think on it.
Tell as many politicians what you know, make sure its factual and you can back it up.
These bastards are experts in riding out storms and sweeping stuff under the carpet and allowing time to do their work....well some storms can f**** you up no matter where you duck for cover.
;D...Might need to take my lap top to the shop tomorrow, I literally spat my tea over it ...."Robbo...are you swearing in your emails", LOL.
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perhaps, just perhaps christmas is coming for these turkeys.
maybe i didn swear enough in my email... hmm
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Hi guys, having listened to most of the M.Ps. talk on the new bill, they only seem to know half of the story and focus on the liquidation of the board if the bill does not go through, they no nothing of conflict of interest and points collecting to be able to get a licence, I say let them go broke, get rid of them and appoint a new board who can manage the `issue of licences` more economically. Has anyone bothered to look into what the board actually do? Presumably they have an office full of workers doing what? What do they need $5million for? It just beggars belief that it could cost that much to run an office, I reckon they must all sit around twiddling their fingers until they can find someone doing some `illegal plumbing` then it’s all hands to the pump to rake in some funds, cheers
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hi guys, sorry about your laptop badger, yes i thought that was quite a funny thing to say too, i don`t think swearing at them will get us anywhere, when are the amendment bill submissions going to be read out and speakers going to take place? cheers
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Robbo - Select Committee meets today - there is 45 minutes of speakers - that is three speakers at 15 minutes each. The Committee are only accepting three submissions which were invited from what I can gather. Anyone else who has sent anything in will have it tabled as "correspondence" as the Committee were not inviting public submissions on this subject. This in itself is challengeable given that we are meant to be living in a democracy. My understanding is that the committee will treat the "correspondence" as if it were a submission. The Select Committee have ONE DAY to get the background on the Amendment Bill, hear the submissions of the three organisations (The Federation and presumably Master Plumbers and the PGDB), read the "correspondence" and make a decision. I think Mr Williamson wants the whole thing done and dusted within the week - and then the real fight will start.
I hope there are good numbers to hear the speakers today - this part is open to the public.
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Is it streamed live and if it is, any idea what time?
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Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson has thumbed his nose at public watchdog the Ombudsman by refusing to refund hundreds of thousands of dollars in illegally gathered industry levies to plumbers and other tradespeople.
Mr Williamson is already under fire for fast-tracking legislation to retrospectively legalise the collection of the money which was used by industry regulator the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board to chase "cowboys" out of the industry.
But on Friday, the day after Mr Williamson's bill was fiercely debated in Parliament, Ombudsman David McGee released his final opinion and recommendations on a complaint he received about the board's "disciplinary levy".
Mr McGee upheld Wellington plumber Wal Gordon's complaint that the fee was illegal and he estimated the amount illegally collected by the board between July 2010 and January 2012 at $600,000.
Mr McGee recommended that the board should negotiate an arrangement "whereby the excess levies paid could in whole or in part be refunded over a period or some credit could be given in respect of future fee or levy payments in compensation".
But Mr Williamson yesterday dismissed Mr McGee's recommendation.
"I think the Ombudsman's Office is wrong. The board would be technically insolvent if they had to pay this money back," he said.
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hi guys, what qualifications does maurice williamson have to say that the `Auditor General` and the `Ombudsman` are wrong? if he is so knowledgeable in these fields the goverment do not need these offices or their staff, just install marice williamson and call it `Gods Office`cheers
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Rule to use mate is if you don't agree with him or his little gang the Board, you are wrong.....no matter what your qualifications.
I didn't realise how far up his own arse his head was until Jax summed up the total amount of organisations that had got it all wrong in Maurice's eyes.
Please see attached the Board's policy on consultation with the industry and its policy on rooting out corruption.
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Can someone write out a generic letter i can take to my local MP for the cause.........cheers
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hi plumber, you have to do volume, i wrote one email and then copy/paste the whole lot of M.Ps.eads into it,try that,cheers
Good old copy paste trick aye! Something generic on here would be great! Imagine the spam lol..
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Your welcome to use any of my rants on here mate, probably the one to Campbell live be best, the rest are more personal to my situation.
Perhaps a concise open letter outlining the issues, then we could all copy and paste and forwards. I would do it but I am Welsh and being brief and to the point ain't in my genes.
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hi guys,looks like a report is due out:- 5.4.2013. cheers.
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Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment BillThe bill proposes amendments to the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006 to validate a disciplinary levy and an offences fee prescribed by the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board. The bill also seeks to extend the Board's power to impose levies so that it has funding for all of its functions, including the prosecution of non-registered persons.
Member in charge: Hon Maurice Williamson
Type of bill: Government
Parliament: 50
Bill no: 101-1
Introduction: 11/3/13
First reading: 14/3/13
Referred to: Government Administration Committee
Report due: 5/4/13
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so i received a txt this arvo from pgdb saying re-licensing is available for next yr - guess that means they have had the word shes all good in the hood to roll onwards and upwards with donation gathering for their charitable good deeds?!?
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Select Committee got an extension from the Business Committee and now do not have to report back until 22nd April. Also all correspondence will be tabled as if it were a submission - so well done to everyone who sent one in - they didn't exactly say how many they had, but they did allude to the fact that they had received quite a few.
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Hi Jax, thats great news.
I spent hours fine tuning my submission to make it as convincing and easy to follow as possible but yet still packed with basic powerful information.
Stoked to know it may do some good after all :), or at least get considered now. Was disappointed earlier to hear it may all become just "correspondence".
Im sure the "Board" will be in red alert mode (defcon 4) trying to do anything it can to swing this their way perhaps even to accidentally "destroy" as many submission documents against this bill as they can get their grubby little suit mits on now lol.... Nothing shocks me at this point.
Is this the worst "Board" ever??
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Rodza I don't think they will be too worried as by the time the decision comes out they will already have the money from licensing and discipline so there is no longer a risk of them being insolvent. But I see it this way - if the Bill isn't passed we have gone from the Ombudsman telling them to pay back $600,000 for the first event, then we will claim the $600,000 from the second event and the one we are paying now is the third event at $600,000. So it will have escalated to $1.8 million.
If the Bill does pass then we go to court and hold the Board and CEO liable for not taking reasonable care and acting in bad faith . The Bill will prove it was an illegal action and is it taking reasonable care doing illegal acts and is it acting in bad faith doing an illegal action that affects others knowing it is illegal.
Get ready to start collecting signatures for a class action and fund raising for the lawyers fees.
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Hi guys,
...
Hon Maurice Williamson
Minister for Building and Construction
14 March 2013
“It has always been the Government's intention that the Board's prosecution function would be funded by the industry. This is how all other boards in the building and construction sector operate,” Mr. Williamson says.
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It had always been my intention to be a law abiding citizen and to fund my bills through honest hard work, however since the introduction of such high cost levies/licenses to buy a licence to work I have had to rob dairies to pay these bills! Hope I don`t get caught or I will have to pay the money back and go to jail!! But who will look after my wife and 3 kids?
…
So that’s alright then, cheers
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The lesson Maurice is sending to the industry and the general public is do what ever the f*ck you like, and if you get caught, make it legal later by speaking to the right people or talking your way out of it.
Right...now thats been said...off to cause some anarchy in my city then get off scot free haha. Thanks for the life lesson uncle Maurice 8)
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8) I am all for parity in the trades.....I would love to pay what a sparky does for their licences and same CPD requirements.... ONCE EVERY TWO YEARS
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8) I am all for parity in the trades.....I would love to pay what a sparky does for their licences and same CPD requirements.... ONCE EVERY TWO YEARS
I second that. Fees and levies are getting beyond a joke and with a minister condoning legalized theft its no wonder I've dusted of the passport
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Put that passport away - you know you love it here - the problem with Australia is there are too many Australians - ;)
Anyway, what would you complain about if you went back to Australia - wages that were too high, a regulator that is common sense, cheap licensing fees, better weather - oh and the best bit - being surrounded by lots and lots of Kiwis! ;D
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Aboutgas you probably wouldn't qualify to get back in the country now but if we work on it hard enough we can get a criminal conviction for the Board and Williamson and then they will qualify to enter Australia.
We could get the Board to pay for it as they have done so in the past for a pissup so why not for something serious.