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Hi, I hope someone can help me with two issues.
1. My house is 43 years old and has GI pipe up to the house from the toby on the footpath. I have to replace it all as it's blowing out and leaking. It was laid in clay. I have dug back from the toby, under 200 mm of concrete in places and under a block wall etc. It's been a mission, all right. I have come to a T joint on the east side of the house where all the plumbing is (laundry, kitchen, bathrooms, toilets etc). One lead goes under the house and would appear to come up through the concrete slab and into the back of a shower wall. The other lead goes a few meters to an outside tap which comes up through a concrete courtyard. My question is this: Can I safely assume that there is only one mains water supply into the house? I don't want to have to dig up the final few meters to the outside tap if I don't have to as the GI pipe is very deep below a raised garden bed. It's back breaking for a 60 year old.
2. Over the past 6-7 or so years the hot water flow has been getting weaker and weaker. I have had two plumbers in and one replaced the 7.6 mm APEX pressure reducing valve this week and cleaned the filter. No change. The second said that the 270 liter low pressure tank is mounted too high. previously, we had a real torrent of water in the shower. It's not scale build up in the shower head as when we run cold water to the bath or any other cold faucet the hot supply stutters and coughs and then just runs out completely at any hot faucet. Thankfully we still have enough hot flow for a shower, albeit a pretty low flow one. I have replaced 11 meters of GI supply pipe so far and it hasn't made any difference to the hot water flow. The question is, why is this happening?? One of the plumbers said I will have to go to a mains supply but nothing has really changed with the plumbing it's just that the hot is just getting worse and worse.
Thanks for reading all this stuff and if you need me to clarify just post away. Thanks, Mark, Christchurch.
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And just to add, the second plumber told me that he thought that the hot supply was stuttering and coughing because it was sucking in air from the hose that goes up through the roof. The pipe goes up very high. But why wasn't it doing all this 7 years ago when all supplies were good? Thanks.
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firstly have you eliminated any potential blockages in the hot pipework?
it may be required that you reverse flush the hot water system
also - please tell me you DO NOT have a hose acting as your hwc exhaust?!?
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We recently went to a job where the owner was also complaining about his pressure dropping over time, after 2 days of investigation it turned out a water main coupler had cracked 2 meters under ground creating a hole large enough to suck dirt and soil into the water main, eventually got caught in a buried dux swivel underground attached to the water main (only has a 8mm hole, must have run out of water main pipe, who did that?!) reducing the pressure until the owner felt he couldn't shower that way any more :-X.. We also found soil in the WC inlet valves, flexi hoses etc. Once cleaned out and water main fixed "vuala" mains pressure! You never know.
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If the problem is just on your hot water side could it be that your hot water cylinder is over 20 - 30 years old? Anything attached to it?
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"it may be required that you reverse flush the hot water system
also - please tell me you DO NOT have a hose acting as your hwc exhaust?!?"
The hot water system hasn't been reverse flushed. I'm not sure what you mean by having a hose as my hwc exhaust. It appears to be standard in wall plumbing and there is a pipe out of the top of the hwc that extends some metres above my (flat) roof.
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"if the problem is just on your hot water side could it be that your hot water cylinder is over 20 - 30 years old? Anything attached to it?
The hwc was manufactured in 2000. I don't think there is anything "attached" to it except pipes carrying how water to faucets.
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And just to add, the second plumber told me that he thought that the hot supply was stuttering and coughing because it was sucking in air from the hose that goes up through the roof. The pipe goes up very high. But why wasn't it doing all this 7 years ago when all supplies were good? Thanks.
this
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Hi Toycollector10,
There will be a point or multiple points where the gal pipe changes to copper. It could be that the cylinder is feed from the galv, at this point there will be a brass fitting. The galv and brass will have reacted, causing the pipe fitting to corrode internally and reduce the internal diameter. Check this fitting out.
What was the condition of the galv pipe you took out?
Don,t you hate it when you can't sleep! 8)
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Thanks for your replies I have been out of town for three days but finished digging this arvo. The GI pipe (rotten inside and out and in a terrible way) comes from the toby on the footpath, under a block wall and down the side of the house. There is a T junction. One offshoot disappears into the side of the concrete slab the house sits on and the other goes straight ahead to a tap on the outside of the house. The GI pipe leading into the house has a join just after the T intersection and it appears that the pipe is copper (with some sort of calcification on it) and the copper pipe seems to be sleeved with black plastic but not fully. I've trenched to the corner of the raised garden and will relocate the outside tap there. Would it be safe to call in a plumber or do I have to follow the pipe into the house? Any comments would be appreciated.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/toycollector10/bastardpipes013Large-1.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/toycollector10/bastardpipes008Large.jpg)
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/toycollector10/bastardpipes013Large-1.jpg)
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That's part one of the question fixed this morning when Peter Diver Plumbing arrived and replaced all pipework required.
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So glad you got Peter Diver Plumbing in - they've had a rough time with the Mainzeal collapse. I'm sure they did an excellent job for you.
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Yeah, Mainzeal. Liable for up to 30 million in leaky house litigation so just pulled the pin and ran away waving their fingers in the air to everyone else. Morally corrupt. I got in Peter Diver Plumbing as there is a chain back up to management if anything goes wrong. I had an emergency and called a sole trader type guy in on the 24th of December to stop off galvanised pipe to an outside tap that was leaking badly and threatening to inundate the lower floor of my house. His price for that was, I think $280 for a part and 40 minutes work then he said but $200 cash would do it which was what I opted for. Some people on wages work for for 16 hours to take home $200. But don't get me started on the low wage economy!!!
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Yes know what you are saying about Mainzeal, we have been caught too - for a lot of money. Peter Diver Plumbing is a very reputable firm with a lot of staff. Firms will be hurting all over NZ with his collapse and we haven't even seen the flow on effect yet of subbies falling over, merchants taking hits and jobs with no guarantees on them now the company has collapsed. I understand liquidators have now been appointed and I for one will be bloody interested to see if the Directors have done anything dodgy, given that Mainzeal were still handing out new contracts for jobs a couple of weeks before they went belly up. I find it very, very hard to believe that Shipley and Collins didn't have an inkling that things were going pear shaped, they sure did a few days out when they resigned. The rest of us had to put up with shitty emails telling us were weren't getting paid but they would keep us updated, not as updated as www.stuff.co.nz did though when they announced the collapse on Waitangi Day. Someone needs to pay for the mismanagement and someone needs to pay for stringing subbies along for so long and not being honest.
$240 - sounds like 2.5 to 3 hours labour and a part.... Was it after hours on the 24th? Probably someone who had knocked off for Christmas. It's times like this that the bigger firms always have someone on call - still it pays to have a regular plumber and stick with them - the service will be good and they will know the little foibles of your property.
Good luck
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i guys, i don`t know why subbies let the bill get so high and risk not getting paid, when a reasonable amount is unpaid is when subbies should say pay us now or we stop work untill we are paid up to date. I hope P.Diver does not go broke he has got a lot of guys and a lot of equipment to keep going, i worked for him years ago and i have to say that he was one of the best bosses that i have worked for, i do beleive that he is owed heaps,cheers
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Robbo - it wasn't a case of it getting too high and not getting paid, Mainzeal paid each month up till January when the December progress claims were due and not paid. Then they sent emails saying payment would go through on 5 February. If you are doing a large job (or multiple jobs for the same company) you can easily have progress claims in the hundreds of thousands across a company. Imagine a month of fitting out with all your finishing gear to be charged across a multi story apartment block, or an institutional job where you have very expensive stainless fixtures, or even a job where you have 10 - 15 guys working. Add to this the retention factor and you can see how subbies across NZ and across many trades have been sucked in by Mainzeal, who until this situation seemed to be very steady and safe.
Now is the time for Government to set up a scheme whereby retentions are independently managed so that if and when companies fail like this, the subbies aren't the ones carrying the can. I'll bet Shipley, Collins and co got their directors fees, and I'll bet Mr Yan's homes in Epsom and Remuera are all tied in in layers of trusts etc.
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hi guys/Jax, (Now is the time for Government to set up a scheme whereby retentions are independently managed so that if and when companies fail like this, the subbies aren't the ones carrying the can)
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so untill this happens subbies should nor entertain working for them, i know that ,that is a simplistic veiw but what are you trying to acheive? you cant afford to wind up with thousands of dollars of unpaid work that you now owe, you would have been better off plodding along with a small buiseness that has it`s bills paid,cheers
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Robbo the trouble is you don't know they are ratbags until it is too late! I don't disagree that a smaller business with its bills paid is good - but it is all relative a one man band who has a big house go belly up is in the same position albiet on a smaller scale, but he still has to mortgage his house or go under. The fact is that you always start small, and then get a bigger job and so employ more people and so on and so on. Then you can end up with 30+ people working for you - what do you do? You have to keep on pricing big work or else they won't have jobs - suddenly you are feeding the dinosaur. Many employees will be made redundant because businesses will shrink and cut costs - this is a tragedy for the employer and employee as these people become like family to you. You know their partners, you know their children, hell you've watched them grow up alongside your own sometimes. Suddenly through no fault of yours or theirs you may not have a job for them. None of it is good. So what are you trying to achieve? Nothing except to take up opportunities as they arose. I understand this is the risk of being in business - and so you won't hear me saying government should bail Mainzeal out, or anyone else for that matter. What I do call for though is some regulations around theft and reckless trading. Subbies have been used by main contractors for years and years to bankroll their developments (this applies to big players like Mainzeal and to small builders bulding spec houses) - no one is immune and if we can see trust accounts set up where retentions have to be paid in to then that gives some peace of mind to tradesmen around the country and will ensure the fat cats have to properly budget for these developments and not use subbie money to fund it.
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hi,jax, i have much sympathy for you and others but you have to vett all prospective clients, make the rules that suit you or walk away. Builders use subbies because they know that they can screw them to a low price and that if anything goes wrong they can liquidate and let the subbies bear the brunt ,legally. if retention was mentioned to me the work just wouldn`t happen, there will always be an excuse for not paying it back,the problem for companies like yours is that you may finish up having to go bankrupt yourself so what did you gain,cheers
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Hi , you should not have to vet a big company like mainzeal,you would think they would be ok. I've caught up with some of their[ex] site foremen, they had no idea what was happening untill they were asked for the keys to their vehicles. They get no holiday pay etc. I wonder which company is next if mainzeal can go under.
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Hi Toycollector, I see you have answers for part 1 of your original questions. Did you solve part 2 yet? why your hot water pressure has been dropping over the years??
I love a good old fashioned plumbing problem like this so thought I would add my opinion
If it was me and judging by what you have already posted, your new water pipe from the boundary to the house has all been replaced, no galv. I would replace every bit of remaining galv pipe if any remaining that carries water under the floor of your home to the hot water cylinder inlet/ pressure reducing valve. Then if your pressure is still low for your hot water & it is not from a blocked shower rose or shower mixer or anything silly like that you then know your cold water supply is not to blame. I would then suggest replacing the pipework for the hot water, directly from the cylinder outlet either in full or as much is as able to be reached, or perhaps just to the most affected outlet for now which Im guessing is your shower. I would also check there is not a build up restricting flow on the 20mm threaded fittings on the hot water cylinders inlet and outlet as I have seen this before. I am surprised to read neither of your first two plumbers did a flow check. Based on mains supply pressure they should be able to calculate an acceptable flow rate to the pressure reducing valve for example or any other outlet and advise on pipe replacement etc. Change the PRV, check the filter and give up??? Seems like incomplete service to me.
Lastly I would inspect your toby out on the boundary, if it looks very dated it may have been there for decades. If it does not shut off 100% either which many do not, phone the council to report it and ask to have it replaced as you have plumbing work to do.
Even if it is difficult to turn you can get it replaced, Ive worked as a plumber and a water network contractor and we get calls like this on the network all the time.Council contractors will replace your toby at no charge to you, and the surround/ riser and toby lid if required. Also if the pipe from the main in the street to your toby is also galv or copper they will replace all of this also usually, (well we do where i live in north island anyway, although every council is different.)
It doesnt hurt to try it on. As a plumber I have had jobs where the galv has rusted up on the council side thus cutting the flow of water right down to a property. To the untrained eye the pressure looks fine but it is the "flow rate" you are interested in. As a water network contractor I have seen this also with galv, very common. Galv restricts water flow over time by forming rust on the internal lining of the pipe as water has oxygen in it, the two things needed for rust to form, copper seems to stay the same but suffers from pipe wall softening and pinhole leaks.
Cheers