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An open letter to all Master Plumbers, widly circulated to all Associations that I have on my lap top
Please table at all Associations in preparedness for the up coming AGM for discussion. Please include all attachments with this email.
An open letter to all Master Plumber Members, I ask you to consider if this would be acceptable to you to have this happen to your family?
I believe that all members should know what support and understanding you could possibly be in for, as a member of this organisation. My name is Paul Gee, I am an ex president and vice president of the Nelson Association. I was a fully paid up member of about 8 years. I attended a leadership course as I was excited about this organisation and committed to making a contribution. I have attached a copy of my history to give you a background to my situation. This will give you an overview of what happened.
I am very disappointed with certain member’s behaviour and ethics, and even more than that – sometimes completed bewildered by it. I believe that some members are immoral bullies that put their own agenda and needs before others and act in a vindictive, even vicious, manner. They ignore the Societies own rules and act with total disregard for Master Plumber’s code of ethics. These people operate within the safety of an old boy’s network that seems impenetrable and very defensive. These people have made it appear that it is the Society that I have complained about; this is not true, just certain members who don’t abide by their own rules.
They have claimed that now I have resigned, which I believe was the only solution to prevent further persecution, I can not complain about any Master Plumbers…..but they are unable to show me any meaningful Master Plumber rules or codes to back this.
I was very vocal at my associations meetings, airing my concerns about the work of just one person in our community. I was concerned about the standard of his work and the ethic that he used in installing gas in peoples homes. To my mind it was just out and out dangerous. I did this years before an explosion nearly killed someone.
You may be familiar with my story and I apologise for going on and on, but I have lost so very much; that I want it to be clear to all what has happened. I ask you all to think of one thing……..what if this was your family? How would you respond?
I will list my disappointments and I ask all members to consider whether this is acceptable. I would also ask all members where you see Master Plumbers heading in the future… if this sort of behaviour, attitude and direction continues, the membership is in decline along with morale and the industry is at an all time low. All at the hands of a few self servers who abuse the power afforded to them.
I was very vocal with my association and high ranking members at conference. I practically described word for word what could happen and later did happen, i.e. dodgy certs covering dodgy work resulting in an incident. I named John Darnley many times to these people. I did not point the finger at all the gasfitters in my area, as was implied when they audited all the gasfitters in my area, which appears to be the same M.O. as trying to make it appear that it was the whole Society that I had complained about. I reiterate, I have only complained about John Darnley and SOME members of Master Plumbers, not the Society as a whole. Question………why didn’t any one of these people come out and say this is what Paul has been warning about for 6 years? I certainly made it clear to a lot of the high ranking Association members as well as serving members of the Master Plumbers Board what concerns I had. Why was I not offered any support…. instead of railroading me, please see my attached resignation letter for several unacceptable instances that my wife and I endured at the hands of these people.
I am constantly preached to by these people about the code of ethics of Master Plumbers….. by these very people that I have attempted to complain about. But I believe they have ignored their own rules below -
· The Member acknowledges that observance of the Code of Conduct set out below is a fundamental condition of membership of the Society.
· Members shall always act in accordance with good Industry practices, and in a manner that reflects well on the Society, its members, and the Industry.
· Members shall not publicly criticise fellow members.
· Purpose
The purpose of this Code of Practice is to promote good trade and business practices by Master Plumbers and good relationships between Master Plumbers and with their clients by encouraging the highest standards of courtesy and consideration.
· Complaints and inquiries will be handled promptly, reasonably and with due courtesy to the complainant throughout the process.
· Members will not criticise another's workmanship or pricing policies.
In light of these excerpts copied and pasted directly from the code of conduct and listed above, my highlights in red, do you believe the members mentioned in my attached history document and resignation letter has acted within these codes? I believe they have not and I think that the question that needs to be asked….why do these people feel that they are above these codes of conduct and not bound by them… but feel free to pontificate to others? I would ask the Society membership as a whole to consider pushing for a vote of confidence in these people.
3. One board member, who over saw an impartiality hearing, where he voted that he was impartial (which is a total contradiction in terms) signed a letter that threatened yet another investigation into myself, please see attached complaint . This was after a very emotional email to the PGDB CEO, written after leaving my wife and kids crying at the airport for the umpteenth time in the 18 months that I have had to work away for. This email had such an effect on the Board CEO that he laughed it off at a meeting, where one of the people present was the Master Plumber Board Member mentioned earlier. The reason I snapped that day was that I found out that Stephen Parker, the presiding chair at my actual hearing hadn’t registered the full extent of his relationship with Tony Hammond, the so called “impartial” investigator. This was all done after the Master Plumber Board Member mentioned earlier, had presided over my complaints at an “impartiality” hearing and dismissed them, I specifically questioned the investigators impartiality……. so they appoint his colleague to over see my disciplinary hearing. The letter from the Master Plumber Board Member (wearing umpeteen different hats at any one time) is full of half truths and tries to keep me quiet by forcing a confidentially clause upon my self, when pushed about this I am told the clause is only there to protect the privacy of the person complained about. But I am being told that I am bound by this clause even “surviving my resignation”, with a confidentiality clause that is there to protect me from myself? This tack is reiterated by the current Board Chair in the letter dismissing my complaint, see attached. I think this speaks volumes about the true line of thought and agenda behind this letter, to shut me up with non existent Master Plumber rules and codes….while they ignore the ones I can find. I believe that when faced with chairing this complaints committee then the member in question should have stood down, am I to believe he doesn’t remember me or my situation. I don’t believe he can manage his conflicts.
4. On the same “Plumbers Forum” mentioned in the complaint there are many entries made by my self that tells of how I was treated and the effect it was having on my family, but the only ones that these people jump upon and claim moral superiority over is my tantrum after 3 years of persecution and a peaceful protest using swear words, pretty tame considering. For Example, they are happy to over look the entry on this same site about my wife opening very graphic child sexual abuse case notes, sent unmarked and opened by her, just before having to sell her home and live in a caravan with my two sons for a whole winter, while I worked away. These people have a very selective take on ethics.
I ask any or all members to raise this at an association level to prepare in order to table this at the up coming AGM, I regretfully had to resign because of the threat of a further investigation into myself at the hands of these people, as a non member I can not do this. I also ask the members to remember that these people only have power if they are followed, I know that they would not stand up to scrutiny, and as too many involved people are present on the MP Board and the complaints committee, that is why I turn to the society as a whole for their opinion, I was lead to believe that I was a member of an upstanding, moral, ethical fraternity, but my experience leads me to question this…..and so I turn to the members, who are the real back bone of Master Plumbers. I am happy to talk at the AGM if requested.
As far as my experience goes, I put in a lot of time and money, I represented my area as Association President and V.P., I tried to drum up membership, I attended a leadership course, I was told I was “in”……. but I also tried to prevent a dodgy, dangerous, unethical and unqualified person from hurting anyone…..but I complained to the very people who empowered him, these people had connections. The only tangible thing I got in return for this huge personal input was being totally shafted, done with threats and a sticker for my van. Bloody expensive stickers too.
Just think of this – it could happen to any one of you – any one of you. I believed in this organisation – contrary to what some say I did not expect MP to pay my legal bills, or any of my bills, but what I did think I might get is some common human decency, some support from a professional organisation that I had contributed to for many years. And bear this in mind also……the man I complained about…….his work is still out there. If anything like this happens again how will it reflect on Master Plumbers?
Yours Sincerely Paul Gee
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My letter of resignation and the history sent to all the associations
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And the letter dismissing my complaint.....apparently I can't complain about them ignoring their own protocol and code....while they pontificate to me about my behaviour.......a public enquirey asap.....
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Thank you for smitting.....
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I have had over 30 smites since posting this, but not one reply.......just about sums them up.....all behind closed doors and behind your back or perhaps over the phone with a threatening phone call.....but never in public or to your face.........AND THIS IS WHY WE NEED A PUBLIC ENQUIREY....BECAUSE IN THE COLD HARD LIGHT OF DAY THESE PEOPLE DO NOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY ....AND THE PUBLIC WOULD NOT BACK THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR
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Just thought I'd add a one sided poll.....can't remember where I got the idea from, think it was on an info brief ;)
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hi guys/Badger, SMITE??? i don`t get it in relation to the forum, why is it needed? all these posts are members opinions so i don`t see where: Defeat/Conquer or a firm blow comes into it, i certainly would not use it, i know where a firm blow should be landed but it`s not here on this forum, cheers
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smite
/smīt/ Verb
1.Strike with a firm blow.
2.Defeat or conquer (a people or land).
Synonyms
hit - strike - knock - beat
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I'm not actually sure why we are registered with master plumbers, its for the cheaper petrol right? It's odd how the public perceives the only master plumbers are reliable plumbers and does the Master Plumber warranty actually work? Does anyone know anyone that has actually successfully lodged one with a positive outcome?
What I don't like about the master plumbers is that "an individual" is registered and not "the company" hence only one sticker should be allowed on the actual van of the registered individual certifying plumber. Not sure what the apprentice might reply when asked "what does it mean your a master plumber"? In the end the reality is most plumbers have the bloody sticker hoping to increase or not lose out on business. I would love to know what it takes to get on their board.
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Its just a bit of fun and offers some feed back for people Robbo, well to me anyway.
But it does seem that some on here think along the lines of your dictionary meaning, and probably the only time they get to do it to people, all be it virtually, unless it is by making threatening phone calls and doing things behind peoples backs....perhaps they were/are Dungeons and Dragons Hero's. :-[
I can see them now swashing and buckling with half a broom stick in their bedroom, pmsl ;)
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New guy, from my experience you need to regurgitate what ever your told by certain people, have no opinion and tell certain people involved how great they are. Don't ,what ever you do, offer constructive criticism......never, even if you are trying to help, certain people's ego's can't take it. I have no problem with the Master Plumbers as an organisation....most of the membership and hierarchy are great, just the select few who are bullying dicks who run it like a little fiefdom
My mistake was thinking that it was an organisation for tradesman to get together have a laugh and help each other out and speak your mind.
One guy told me how passionate he was about plumbing, so I asked to see the callouses on his knees.....as if it was plumbing that he loved he would be at it all the time.......when I told him it was bullshit and it was making money off plumbers backs that he was passionate about, he wasn't too happy.......I was told that I would be railroaded.....
If you are going to act personally and abuse your power ....then you shouldn't be in power....justice is meant to be blind and based on facts, not to do over people who offened you at a party, bullying cocks.
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I checked out certain "perks" and found I could get some for the same rates.
ALL I ASK IS FOR A PUBLIC ENQUIREY....CALL ME ON WHAT I HAVE POSTED ON HERE.
Not too long ago some comments on here were made about a certain CEO and a letter from a high powered lawyer followed pretty sharpish......
Please take the time to read my story attached, if none of it is true, wheres my letter?
This is what happened to me.....what would you do?? how would your wife handle it??
What if you lost time out of your kids lives, having to work away for 18 months out of your kids lives??
Loosing your business after lying letters were sent out to your local school, ruining your business and reputation.
Next time you are at the big MP functions and the Kava cup is brought out (a very worth while charity function, totally commendable and brilliant concept) Think how can these people allow this to happen to my family, some not just allow..... but are responsible for it!!!!
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New guy, from my experience you need to regurgitate what ever your told by certain people, have no opinion and tell certain people involved how great they are.
I like your line of thinking Badger, I betta shut it if I want to progress lol 8)
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I have just read the latest "fellow practitioner"....feel a bit like the John Lennon song, but can you imagine if the bullying knobs who are present in MP were ousted and the Feds and MP were to join forces with common sense and decency ruling over the selfish needs of a few, IMAGINE....que music......
I just saw the future and it was beautiful ;)
People .......start seeing the long game, a small few filling their own pockets today is NOT good planning for EVERYONE ELSE tomorrow, that is a fact.
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Haven't had a smite in a while....come on boys where are your fourth level dragon slayer wizards too? PMSL. :D
I am happy to front up at the MP AGM, and answer questions, and then I can question the people responsible for their behaviour in front of the membership. You know who you are...
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I threw my sticker away. Who the hell is going to see it? Not me while driving and sure as hell noone else while I'm driving. None of the plumbers in my small town have them on their van.
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what sticker? i never got a mp sticker? wtf! i want my money back! ......for the last 14 years!!!!
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After you pay your subscription .......you got to buy one, bargin really.
Its so sad that a small group of people are ruining it for every one else, just to fill their pockets and massage their ego's.....pretty much the same in what they are doing to the industry.
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You got to ask your self if only 50% of what I have publically stated is true (and I know its 100% and I can back these claims, even got taped recordings that i am keeping for the special day, got to love modern technology) wouldn't these people have sent the scare tactic of the big noise lawyer's letter by now??
And if what I have said is true, are you happy to be part of a system that acts like this??
It could happen to anyone of you, there is no loyalty, they don't even abide by their own rules and have no problem to then pontificate to all and sundry how ethically superior they are.
There are some who love it the way it is, because they make it that way, for themselves.
Good luck running the gauntlet of not offending these bullies.......
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Many Politicians,most local government(council) staff,PGDB members and now Master Plumbers. There all the same............
There to do as little actual hard labour as possible but to charge the absolute most for their "services" to NZ. So many people on very very good money but actually do F*ck all except to try justify their position every year for the next year. There is sooo much dead wood everywhere on boards, committees and the such in this country these days, all of whom can barely change a light bulb without F*cking it up, yet they are the masters of thousands of experienced hard working kiwis in this country led only by their own greed and hunger to get overpaid for yet another year for what they "actually" do, which in terms of productiveness isnt too much in my experiences. I cant speak for all of them but Id put the rate @ 70%
Its a real laugh watching people from say local council, come onto a job site who are definitely not qualified to have an opinion in the work you might be undertaking etc but because they are from the 'council' only their opinion matters, not yours. Have seen examples of jobs that have been taken over by these useless meat sacks because they want to throw their weight around in front of the 'lowly' manual labour workers.....that actually may or may not have many many more qualifications that relate to the work than they do...but then when their input/direction on the job turns to custard they simply jump in their nice air conditioned mazda and drive off leaving the manual labour workers to fix their mess....most
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Its shocking mate, I absolutely love this country, proud to say my lads are born and bred kiwis, 90% of kiwis are great, hard working blokes(and bloke-ess's) it is beyond doubt the best country on this planet, by far.
But the shame and dis sapointment of it is the 10% lazy corrupt Dick's seem to be in the positions of power and influence, not all but too many. And they are spoiling for the rest of us.....how many good tradies have we lost to Oz and other countries?....what about CHCH? madness.
One of the Board members came up to me at a meeting and said "have you thought of going back to the UK or going to Oz", which seems to be their objective.....if you don't fit with their plans and agenda..... leave or be f****ed over......I told him I ain't going nowhere, my boys were born here, end of.
Watched a film about Nazi Germany last night.......Hitler had the same attitude.......
Heil Bickler, Heil Bickler......I can see him now at Moronburg working himself up in to a spitting rant....."shut up I am speaking".....cock!
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I know that the people I am talking about read this site, my rant to Max Pederson was on here for just a few hours, and over night at that, but they saw it and tried to persue me for my outburst (an outburst done after 3 years of bias persecution and loosing my business and home, but they apparently didn't see the post I put on here about my disgust that my long suffering wife receiving child sexual abuse case notes, apparently that is fine by them).
So I now offer the Board and Master Plumbers to get their best spin doctors and lawyers to make a public reply on this stream, to my claims ( I know you read this site), all the other members and fee paying licence holders can then judge what you are getting for your $4500.00 just to comply with the Board's system (a system that the CEO and chairman are happy to stand by and watch other people who use it to ruin innocent people's live's, in a bias and corrupt way, all with a 50% Master Plumber's members present on the Board, of the available trade positions on the Board) and also some of you the extra $1250.00 you pay to be a member.
I will take no reply as an admission of all that I have said is irrefutable.
Do these people speak for you all? Lets have it out in public, I'll have my say and you can have yours.....openly and fairly(which would be a first I know)
Then you can watch and see that if no reply is forth coming, then they can't refute any of what I have said....
I ask you if what I have said is true.... are you happy for this state of affairs.....are you happy to run the gauntlet of keeping on the right side of these people.....because if you don't suck up to them, they will have you....I am in no doubt about this.
To the Board and certain Master Plumber's please don't reply to this request by sending any more intimidating letters to my home for my wife to open, just say it loud and proud on here......I would expect if all that I have said is untrue or incorrect in anyway you could reply with in a week.....so I'll expect a reply by next Monday, you should because your credability is in tatters if you don't.
Cheers.
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Sent straight after the post.....come on lets have it in the open.Dear Mr Pederson and Master Plumbers’
Please see below a post that I have placed on the Plumber’s Forum. As I have asked for a reply within a week publically I thought it only fair to let you know asap. What you have done to my family is disgusting. If you think I am going to let this ride and take it on the chin you are so wrong. I will force this into the public arena one way or another; you do not intimidate me whatsoever. You are corrupt and turn a blind eye to a very biased and dodgy investigation into me, I WILL NOT stand for this.
I want my apology from Mr Uren asap, it is ludicrous that Ms Cull has reached a conclusion and asked for my reply to her ruling months ago, it is despicable. I have asked her for what has happened but received no reply to date. I don’t think this is acceptable.
I know that the people I am talking about read this site, my rant to Max Pederson was on here for just a few hours, and over night at that, but they saw it and tried to persue me for my outburst (an outburst done after 3 years of bias persecution and loosing my business and home, but they apparently didn't see the post I put on here about my disgust that my long suffering wife receiving child sexual abuse case notes, apparently that is fine by them).
So I now offer the Board and Master Plumbers to get their best spin doctors and lawyers to make a public reply on this stream, to my claims ( I know you read this site), all the other members and fee paying licence holders can then judge what you are getting for your $4500.00 just to comply with the Board's system (a system that the CEO and chairman are happy to stand by and watch other people who use it to ruin innocent people's live's, in a bias and corrupt way, all with a 50% Master Plumber's members present on the Board, of the available trade positions on the Board) and also some of you the extra $1250.00 you pay to be a member.
I will take no reply as an admission of all that I have said is irrefutable.
Do these people speak for you all? Lets have it out in public, I'll have my say and you can have yours.....openly and fairly(which would be a first I know)
Then you can watch and see that if no reply is forth coming, then they can't refute any of what I have said....
I ask you if what I have said is true.... are you happy for this state of affairs.....are you happy to run the gauntlet of keeping on the right side of these people.....because if you don't suck up to them, they will have you....I am in no doubt about this.
To the Board and certain Master Plumber's please don't reply to this request by sending any more intimidating letters to my home for my wife to open, just say it loud and proud on here......I would expect if all that I have said is untrue or incorrect in anyway you could reply with in a week.....so I'll expect a reply by next Monday, you should because your credability is in tatters if you don't.
Cheers.
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Badger - where is all this leading? What is the game plan? You know as well as I do that the PGDB are not going to reply to you in a public forum like this - they can't - it would be ridiculous for them to do so. Their staff will have strict protocols regarding correspondence and who can do what and writing on their behalf on a chat forum like this won't be one they have a policy to cover I wouldn't think. I have followed your case carefully and there is no doubt that the letters sent to your customers implicating you in the Auckland Gas Certificate debacle was deplorable and should have been followed by a swift apology and a letter of retraction to your customers to whom it was sent. No question that would have been the correct thing to do. They didn't and you are justified in being angry about that. The case itself was most interesting - and I thought you did exceptionally well to overturn so many of the charges (and rightly so as you had not done what was alleged). The Board carried out their investigation somewhat shoddily from what I have read - allegedly the investigator it appears did not visit all the properties and the lawyer seemded to have put words in some people's mouths -and this was evidenced by people withdrawing their statements and not turning up at the case at all. In the scheme of things I would hope the PGDB learned a lot from the way this was conducted. A lot of tradesman's money was used in persuing you - with little result for the PGDB.
As to the two particulars - it does appear the califont was too close to an opening window using NZ5261 and that although the British Standard would perhaps apply and be okay - it wasn't referenced in the paperwork for the job or the gas cert? Is this the crux of it? So where do you go know - becasue obviously sending them letters and emails etc isn't getting anywhere. I can see you almost self combusting and you have a young family that you refer to on her often - how is this effecting them? What is the next move - because for your own peace of mind and health you need to either take some sort of legal action or start to re-build your life and move on. I don't say this in a flippant way - but I can see from your posts that your must have a blood pressure through the roof. The PGDB are now worth either your health or your happiness. They aren't going to play tag on here or any other public forum I would guess. So how are you going to deal with this?
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I think the time of hiding behind their protocol and process is well over, they need to front up. I have followed their protocol and got truly shafted, so they can shove that right up their arse. Following their lead, on their pitch, with their ref and their rule book is bullshit and they are bent and incapable of playing fair, I ain't doing it their way any more.
There are four and a half thousand potential viewers on this forum and about seven hundred MP members.
To not respond to being called publically corrupt and accused of acting in this despicable manner is to view everyone else in the industry with contempt and total disregard if you don't explain yourself.....if all I said was untrue I would have been sued for slander......but it ain't slander if it is based in fact.....and if it is true then there needs to be a public enquiry. The arrogance of these people knows no bounds......they look at me as though I am the problem for raising it....nah they are the problem, they should have done the right thing from the start.
As far as my next move Jax and how this effects my family, we are all cool, just spent the summer hols with my lads and had the best "summer holidays" of my life. It do not and I will not allow it to effect them.....but if you think I am going to go through this bullshit and then just crawl under a stone....well you don't know me very well.
Its not about the bullshit charges,hiding evidence, setting me up or the non existant course that I have to do to re-licence this year....IT IS BECAUSE THEY DID THIS TO ME AND MY FAMILY, END OF STORY IT IS/WAS TOTALLY WRONG AND UNFOUNDED FROM DAY ONE. The whole thing was avoidable and should never have happened I will not take it lying down.
And yes I will mention my family, I do not come as a single entity.... what you do to me will ultimately effect my family, and these arsehols should be made aware that their silly little games of power and screwing people over has run on effects.
If you tell lies about me and ruin my ability to provide for my kids, then hell yes I will tell you about it. As for my blood pressure I am all cool and the gang........
I would like to see others if they had been through what I have AND my family and see their reaction, it is wrong and needs addressing.........I have tried all manner of ways, and I going to get more and more public about it until it is looked at fairly and openly, you have my word on this.
They need to front up and answer my accusations....I ain't going nowhere. 8)
I'll get on with my life when I get given my life back, a life that was taken by corruption and backroom deals....I had a good reputation and a viable business.
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In a public forum these people do not stand up to natural justice or scrutiny, to play behind closed doors is to allow them to do as they please with no mirror to their actions, I have seen how they behave out of the public eye, it isn't nice or fair, probably even legal.
If I had a few spare dollars (which I haven't BECAUSE OF THEM) I would go them with every spare cent I had. I only have publicity to highlight this and if writing a few emails while my kids play, feck yeah I am going to.
I think you should be more concerned that they don't respond, not give the out of following protocol. Their processes protect them, it is bullshit.
I will never let this lie, I assure you.
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Just one more thing .....are you saying that the NON maditory part two of the NZ5261 IS manitory?
I showed how the fumes would act, even drew diagrams.....and I was right, which is proven by the British Standard, does it matter when I said it or referenced it? it is a fact that it was safe....it is just bollox. The whole process and policy of the Board protects some real dodgy actions.....so I think it is wrong.
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And lets not forget that some poor sod who nearly died in an explosion, in a situation I am on record continually trying to warn about for 6 years before it happened.....i.e. dodgy certs covering dodgy work...... and still to this very day, the explosion and the person responsible goes uninvestigated by a competent impartial investigator.
John Darnley who in all probability was responsible for the explosion was never even questioned about it and it is the very same person I tried to warn about for 6 years.
Even though Darnley was the last person who installed the last appliance at the site of an explosion but (and this as per the Board) he didn't register the cert.....but all copies available show no test results for gas leaks....but the Board have an electrical copy on the Board's web site!!!! ...but they went after me??? and people wonder why I find it hard to move on with my life. I did f**** all wrong and paid heavily for it.
I was set up as a scapegoat for something I tried to warn about......I could see someone was going to get hurt......then I was blamed for it, that is why I won't let it go......it ain't about some bullshit charge or all the other corrupt crap......
I only tried to warn about it because the guy was hopeless at his job and worse than that didn't give a f****.......and this is reason enough to f**** me over??? I had heaps of work on, had nothing to gain.....I was actually doing quite well rectifying his bullshit work.......I just didn't want to see anyone get hurt, so yeah I'm a bit pissed off, who wouldn't be.
I will never let this go until it is looked into.
I think these people should stop hiding behind biased bullshit protocol and procedures and front up to their actions, in the open, in public.
The thing is they did have a massive devastating effect on me for 3 years, but now they are a little hobby of mine, takes me about 10 mins to write one of these emails and I can contact 4500 potential people IN ONE POST on the forum, so I will keep at it no worries it is all about exposure, them hiding behind their bullshit just makes them look worse....then me and my lads will go down the beach, tidy 8).
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Hi Badger - I understand what you are saying - I wasn't making a judgement on 5261 - that is why I put a question mark after what I said - my understanding of what I have read in the transcript was that the crux of the two particulars they found you guilty on was around process of not claiming to have used the British Standard and that this was why the Court of Appeal wouldn't allow it to be introduced becasue it hadn't been used in the defence of the case the Board bought against you.
I know that there was a technical bulletin from one of the water heating companies that had a measurement on it, but that it was Australian. These are the two particulars that you are trying to get over turned so that you have a 100% clean record isn't it? That's what I was asking.
The PGDB won't ever respond publicly to you - it would be great for you if they would - and I'm sure everyone else would like to read it too (I know I would) - but it ain't ever going to happen.
I have kids too - I know how my stress affects them - you do have people out here that are truly concerned about you and what you are going through.
The example of your case and disciplinary hearing is one that perhaps encapsulated the ineptness of the Board and their investigation processes. I know that I go on about processes and protocols, but they are important in the way we conduct our business. The processes used in your case (again from what I have read and understood) were hugely lacking. I was just wondering where this is all going and how it will end - it appears you will keep on keeping on until they either call you out (I guess legally) or apologise. And I suppose 1 April licensing year will be a watershed if they refuse your license because of the course (which doesn't exist).
I guess it is watch this space.
PS I'm glad you've had a good break with your kids - in the end there is nothing else in life that is more important - the rest is just window dressing.
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Totally Jax, had a ball, but my missis has missed out again because she had to work over xmas, I have had to take a two month break while my wife provides.
I truly believe that all this has to come out and be viewed openly, I don't care for, nor expect any answer, but I will say this.... if I was accused of half of what I have said..... I would respond.... and going by their past actions they would have set the legal team on me if one thing that I have said wasn't true, but it all is true and they know it.
The one question everysingle tradesman needs to ask is......Should an Industry Board be able to make a scapegoat of someone to protect their mistakes and the mistakes of their connected cronies?
I don't think this is right and I am never going to stop thinking this and letting these people know that, and anyone else that will listen. Until I get a full retraction, an apology and compensation for what they did to me, sacking of those responsible and that twat Hammond investigated.....I am going nowhere. The only way to defend these people is to agree that underhanded bullying is OK.....well it is not. I really don't care what policy they try to hide behind.
I am meant to shut up just because they won't answer me.........nah, no thanks. I will up the anti soon, thinking of a few options, this ain't over by a long shot.
If they have learnt so much by my situation...... perhaps I should charge them for all the CPD I have provided, LOL.
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Just had a very depressing chat with a mate, a mutual friend of ours who has endured a 10 year fight against the Board, been dobbed in by someone very connected, he has had a real bad time of it and along with all that it has cost him both financially and emotionally (which these bullying bastards wouldn't last a week of similar treatment)......his wife has had to have a triple by-pass and flown to hospital, all totally stress related......stress caused by the Board and their cronies, it is nothing short of evil.
All you big men out there hope you are proud of your selves...........back room bullies, scum utter scum.
I would go into details but don't want to reveal his identity.
You total tossers........you know who you are.....karma will have you.........
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hi guys/Badger, that is not what is good for our trades, is there anyway that the federation could help? what are the circumstances,i`m sure that we all wish him some luck in getting it sorted,cheers
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I haven't talked to him personally yet and don't feel comfortable divulging anything before I do talk to him, but these power tripping dirty bastards should realise that they do have a huge effect on people AND their families (they know but don't care).
You will notice that none have been on here offering their side of the story......they can't in a public forum (especially with an opportunity for anyone to answer their bullshit excuses, that is why the Plumber's Journal and the Info brief works so well for them, at a debate they would be as useless as tits on a bull)..........because their only way works behind closed doors in the shadows with stand over tacktics....well that used to work because you could network and screw people over with the industry and public at large would not find out..... and the poor sod trying to have his say couldn't be heard......welcome to the internet you dodgy feckers.........
Those still backing these dicks should realise that with out you they have no power and I have attached a photo that I really like............WHEN AND I MEAN WHEN, people walk away they will fall and because they fecked so many over on their way up....well the way down won't be too nice will it.........and judging by the deafening silence we won't have to wait for ever........karma is a b****....
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My mates name is Gary Jones, the one from the Auditor Generals report, the report that Kern Uren referred to as "just one man's opinion, every one is entitled to an opinion" said in front of a solicitor taking notes and witnesses.... about the NZ Auditor General!!!!!.Unbelievable arrogance. Same guy bullies office girls.......nice.
Even though the OAG report was in Gary's favour and 14 out of his 16 complaints were up held and found to disadvantage him, the other 2 complaints found to fall outside policy(still may be valid, but outside policy) he still is being screwed by the Board. Even though he should have got his licences, he still has not been given his licences.... even though he is very good at his job and some pretty clued up people think he should have, perhaps he was done over because he was in direct competition with a certain MP president who laid the complaint....now remember my old boss was given his full craftsman after just one oral exam... by the man who was later appointed to NOT investigate my old boss..... at the site of an explosion with a dodgy cert that nearly killed someone.......corrupt.....
Gary appeared in the Plumbers Journal which highlighted him to a certain Board Member amongst others, and shortly after his sons apprenticeship was dissolved, all this shit he has been through is mostly, if not all, because of influential people making complaints so as to f**** over their competition, you know who you are, Gary asked me not to say, because he knows how vindictive they can be.
This man came to NZ to better his life and got royally shafted...........
I hope his wife all the best and a speedy recovery.........10 years of bullshit and stress......nice work the Board and your cronies.....we need a public enquire ASAP.......write to your local Member of Parliament if any that I have said is distasteful to you.....we need numbers, join the Feds.....do something because this is just wrong.......
I am just waiting to be set up again and shafted for being out spoken about these people, but I would rather live a week as a lion than a life time as a sheep..........
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Robbo mate ......not unless they could build a time machine and go back in time and for the Board to do the right thing (which they still wouldn't).......The thing is mate all this bullshit has made his wife seriously ill....how can you fix that. I'm sorry too..... I exaggerated..... it was only a double not triple heart by-pass.
It has had huge effect on my family. My wife grinds her teeth in her sleep when she is stressed.....just after they sent her the child sexual abuse case notes to make their argument on probabilities for my case and we were looking at loosing our home (which we later had to sell).....my wife chewed all the inside of her cheek and woke up with a blood coming out of her mouth.......these people are lower than the shit off my shoe....
The ironic thing is....... it is our wives that are probably what stops us taking things further in a more physical and personal way......I know it is for me.
Just as a bit of gossip too.....
I heard through the grape vine that Peter Jackson (of Board fame with the Marty Feldman eyes, and one of the people who shafted poor Gary, has lost his position on the "Plumbing Suppliers Board"....hope you have a nice time on your way down ya shithouse.....so now all his vulture mates can stop backing him, because it appears he is loosing his credability, and start shafting him.....they have no loyalty or moral compass.
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The guy circled on the left back row appears to be my ex-boss, John Darnley, stood next to him appears to be Mr Peter Jackson.....circled far left second row back, Mr Tony Hammond, front row Mr Stephen Parker and stood in front of who appears to be Peter Jackson is Anthony Salisbury.
This photo was taken in the year 2006, the same year I tried to complain about my ex boss Darnley by a letter from Nick Smith MP.......6 years later an explosion nearly kills someone and they appoint Mr Hammond to investigate (who also gave my boss his full craftsman status after just one oral exam some 10 years earlier). I tried to complain about the impartiality issues and was shot down by a panel consisting of Peter Jackson and another Master Plumber, Mark Whitehead.
Then they appointed Mr Parker to chair my disciplinary hearing.......a picture speaks a million words so they say......
I was found not guilty of 95% and only got done for one thing which is OK as per a British Standard......they basically said that the non mandatory part two......is mandatory....then publically said it was me that didn't know the fundamentals of my trade and now have to do a non existant course to up skill......and people wonder why I nut off and call them shithouses....
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Can you see any others on there you might know...or an original copy would be handy as the photo seems to have disappeared from the internet.
I don't believe my treatment is fair or ethical.......what would you do?
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I have another 4 or 5 photos just like this with a similar crew of faces, taken each year.
Darnley resigned from NZIGE the month following the explosion.
Do you think these people have any credability?
They have shafted so so many people, wrong just plain wrong.
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and guess who was the chair of Darnleys hearing....Mr Mark Whitehead.
no one was questioned about the site of an explosion, except me.....
Darnley was the last person to work there, installed a pizza oven......all carbon copies show test results empty....but and this is where it goes a bit odd.....the Board were asked 9 days after the explosion for all copies for the site of the exploding chip shop and told the owner that the top pink copy wasn't ever registered at the Board....but there is an electrical copy on their website....hhhmmmm....
So even by their own admission the Board were aware of the non registration of the cert.....but didn't think that Darnley should be questioned about it......and I had spent the previous 6 years trying to warn about Darnley.....see photo below..........what scale of corruption do you think may apply? I think the public sector one sounds about right. See below....what type of socitey are we building? The last line right at the bottom says it all......
Corruption can occur on many different scales. There is corruption that occurs as small favours between a small number of people (petty corruption), while there is the corruption that affects the government on a large scale (grand corruption), and corruption that is so prevalent that it is part of the every day structure of society (systemic corruption).
Petty
"Petty" corruption occurs at a smaller scale and occurs within established social frameworks and governing norms. Examples include the exchange of small improper gifts or use of personal connections to obtain favours. This form of corruption is particularly common in developing countries and where public servants are significantly underpaid.
Grand
Main article: Political corruption
"Grand" corruption is defined as corruption occurring at the highest levels of government in a way that requires significant subversion of the political, legal and economic systems. Such corruption is commonly found in countries with authoritarian or dictatorial governments and in those without adequate policing of corruption by anti-corruption agencies.
The government system in many countries is divided into the Legislative, Executive and Judiciary branches in an attempt to provide independent services that are less prone to corruption due to their independence.
Systemic
Main article: Systemic corruption
Systemic corruption (or endemic corruption[2]) is corruption which is primarily due to the weaknesses of an organisation or process. It can be contrasted with individual officials or agents who act corruptly within the system.
Factors which encourage systemic corruption include conflicting incentives, discretionary powers; monopolistic powers; lack of transparency; low pay; and a culture of impunity.[3] Specific acts of corruption include "bribery, extortion, and embezzlement" in a system where "corruption becomes the rule rather than the exception."[4] Scholars distinguish between centralized and decentralized systemic corruption, depending on which level of state or government corruption takes place; in countries such as the Post-Soviet states both types occur.[5]
Different Sectors
Corruption can occur in many different economic sectors, whether it be public or private industry or even NGOs.
Government/Public Sector
Public sector corruption is one of the more dangerous forms of corruption as corruption of the governing body can lead to widespread effects. Recent research by the World Bank suggests that who makes policy decisions (elected officials or bureaucrats) can be critical in determining the level of corruption because of the incentives different policy-makers face
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I don't think we live in a 3rd world country or a dictatorship....how long are we going to let these people get away with it....
They have done this to lots of people not just me......are you going to try to run the gauntlet of not pissing these people off???? or perhaps you would like to join them and think they are doing a good job...I wouldn't advise this choice because WHEN we have a public enquire and all this comes out, you will be on the wrong side of right, these people are dinosaurs from a waining age.
Everyone knows who these people are, if we turn our backs on them they have nothing......think about it.
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Does anyone out there have any suggestions about how we can help Badger get some justice.
I think he's right when he says it can happen to any one of us.
Why wait for it to happen lets go on the offensive.
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hey watchdog, getting change will be a drawn out slow process to deal with this bureaucratic ineptness. Maybe
if enough with the right credentials stand and refuse to be part of the bullshit and refuse to conform to the regime it would have a effect.
or we just storm the board.. I just cant understand how we have a board that crucifies its members.... the honest guys trying to work the honest way .
Leadership and togetherness has to be a starter for change
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hi guys/craftsman, (I just cant understand how we have a board that crucifies its members.... )
...
remember, we are not members they have made that clear, they are there for the benifit of the public, and of course to make a good living out of screwing us,cheers
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So a week and a half and no response....didn't expect one anyway.....the point I am raising is this....Wal had a letter from a lawyer quick smart for something quite trivial.....now I have said some real strong things on here and not even received a feckin post it.....you can't do me for anything because all that I have said is true....
Sent straight after the post.....come on lets have it in the open.Dear Mr Pederson and Master Plumber's
Please see below a post that I have placed on the Plumber's Forum. As I have asked for a reply within a week publically I thought it only fair to let you know asap. What you have done to my family is disgusting. If you think I am going to let this ride and take it on the chin you are so wrong. I will force this into the public arena one way or another; you do not intimidate me whatsoever. You are corrupt and turn a blind eye to a very biased and dodgy investigation into me, I WILL NOT stand for this.
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Robbo mate if your a master plumber and remember the Board has a 50% representation on it of the positions available to the trades....then the Board does screw its own members in a Mater Plumber context.....and they will in the future and they have in the past.....not just me either.....watch your backs guys, no loyalty to their own code, despicable people playing dirty.....
Not only did the same crew persecute me via the Board, they attempted to do it to me via the master Plumber's disciplinary group too....until I left....telling me not to go public because of a privacy part of the Master Plumbing contract, telling me it even survived my resigning( the only thing they could show me, was something for my protection, not theirs)
They should have stepped down and listed their conflicts of interest, they didn't
People on my hearing and involved in my impartiality hearing, and part of my investigation, where I was totally done for f**** all.....
Mark Whitehead, Master Plumber
Peter Jackson, Master Plumber
John Debanardo, Master Plumber
John Simmiss, Master Plumber
Graham Hardie, Master Plumber
Allan Bickers IPENZ
And Tony Hammond investigator IPENZ and along with Stephen Parker chair of my hearing, manage a trust together and run lots of gas groups...John Darnley,my dodgy old boss... same gas groups and master plumbers. Much more no doubt but these are the ones that spring to mind.
These people lead a trumped up kangaroo court and very dodgy investigation in to me, ignoring some very serious evidence......best part is if, and its a huge if, these people stuck to their OWN master plumber rules and "ethic" code they would have to turn a blind eye...which is wrong aswell....
These people need not be feared if you see them out in the open, their intimidation only works if you let them do it behind closed doors.
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And if all I said is true..........how do you all feel about living with the risk of these bullies coming after you if you, to quote one of the people who tried to make a threatening phone call, "piss some influential plumbers off"
If it suits them they will do it to anyone.....
I was talking about it with one of the biggest plumbers in my area, he said that I had probably got on the wrong side of someone and that that was a bad idea, I asked him if he ripped people off or did dodgy work, he rightfully replied, "no I do not"
My reply...........then why do you live in fear...
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Mr Bickers said he did not know Tony Hammond at a meeting in Wellington, he said words to the effect of ....there are over 10 000 members and I don't know him.
Mr Bickers was on my hearing panel......Tony Hammond was the "impartial" investigator......
have a look at below, My question is yes there are over 10 000 members in IPENZ....but HOW MANY ARE INVOLVED WITH THE BOARD. Also have a look at what Mr Bickers charges for his CPD courses.....
The Standards New Zealand Meritorious Awards were first
introduced in 2001. SNZ committee members make nominations for
the Meritorious Service Awards. IPENZ recognises the voluntary
commitment involved in producing credible and sound Standards.
"Over 1500 New Zealanders contribute their time and effort to
produce these documents, and what's more, they do so without
payment. It is only fitting then, that they receive recognition for their
outstanding efforts", says SNZ CEO Rob Steele.
Tony Hammond MIPENZ. Tony has been a
"great ambassador for the Standards
development process" while working on
Standards for the gas industry. He is a
mechanical engineer and has worked in the gas
industry for more than 30 year
Then
• Tue 8:15 AM - 5:00 PM
Christchurch
Presenter: Alan Bickers
$540.00 excl GST
IPENZ Membership Discount Rate$480.00 excl GST
PDP Employee Rate$460.00 excl GST
Register
• APR 16
Tue 8:15 AM - 5:00 PM
Auckland
Presenter: Alan Bickers
$540.00 excl GST
IPENZ Membership Discount Rate$480.00 excl GST
PDP Employee Rate$460.00 excl GST
Register
• APR 24
Wed 8:15 AM - 5:00 PM
Taupo
Presenter: Alan Bickers
$540.00 excl GST
IPENZ Membership Discount Rate$480.00 excl GST
PDP Employee Rate$460.00 excl GST
Register
• JUN 18
Tue 8:15 AM - 5:00 PM
Wellington
Presenter: Alan Bickers
$540.00 excl GST
IPENZ Membership Discount Rate$480.00 excl GST
PDP Employee Rate$460.00 excl GST
Register
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Description
Professional engineers perform in the capacity of “an expert” in a variety of situations
• Resource Consent hearings
• The Environment Court
• Arbitrations
• The District or High Court
This one-day workshop is designed to equip professional engineers with the knowledge and skills to perform the role of “expert witness” in a confident and competent manner, understanding the status, obligations, and legal and ethical requirements of the role.
Learning outcomes
Attendees will be able to demonstrate an understanding of the following
• The status of the “expert witness”
• The legal and ethical obligations
• How best to prepare evidence; and
• How to deliver evidence and respond to examination
Presenter information
Alan Bickers
Alan Bickers CPEng, IntPE, Dist FIPENZ has over 40 years experience as a professional engineer, senior executive, company director and consultant. Alan provides services as an independent commissioner under the Resource Management Act and in alternative dispute resolution (arbitration, mediation and adjudication) particularly relating to engineering, building, construction and local government.
Alan is a Distinguished Fellow and Past President of IPENZ, and is also a Fellow of the Arbitrators’ and Mediators’ Institute of New Zealand and several other professional bodies.
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SECRETARIAT OF GANZ
Stephen Parker, Executive Director and Secretary
Tony Hammond, Technical services
This is from just one of the many many items I have down loaded with these two people together, and I mean lots.
Tony Hammond "impartial" investigator.....
Stephen Parker.....chair of my kangaroo court.....
HMMMMM is that a conflict of interest .......
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Running a course on "the role of the professional witness".......so I take it Mr Bickers you would know the effects on fairness if a "impartial" investigator with held photos that a forensic investigator took? Or wrote the statements for people who wouldn't sign them??
Or perhaps it is a course on making a living out of being a witness LOL, doing it professionally, like perhaps a golfer going pro.....
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Like I said a public enquirey....this isn't fair.....maybe illegal?????....going to see a lawyer soon, perhaps I can find out.
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The people we talk about who read this site can suck my balls...thats what I think about that. Get the visual picture and enjoy it,thats what its all about.
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discount for members.....hmmmm where I have heard that before......
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For more proof see attachments, the overseer and chair of my hearing was Stephen Parker.........and the "impartial" investigator was Tony Hammond....
Now the faces are the same, see photos....the both managed the Kennedy Trust together and were on the Secretariat for GANZ together.
Is it OK for this to happen?