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Hi guys im interested to know whether you are planning on bumping up your rates in 2013. With several good plumbers I pay well when looking at the bottom line with all the licensing fee's, time for CPD etc, I almost feel I need to bump mine up. Not to mention that more and more people delay with payments and the risks are greater then ever. Until now I have not built a risk factor into my rate to accommodate the market but considering it in 2013.
Did you find it easy winning jobs last time you bumped your rates up? Appreciate any feedback.
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hi guys/plumber, it`s getting harder and harder to win jobs we are still in a recesion and down here in ch-ch with fletchers calling all the shots there is little chance of putting rates up,cheers
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I feel the same way here in Auckland Robbo, Its already hard to win work and when you do there is no room for error, I can recall 6 - 7 years ago people never asked for quotes they simply booked a plumber. Today they get 15 quotes to replace a washer!
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We are pricing commercial work on the hourly rates we charged 4 years ago - and still not winning much at all. Domestically we have lifted our rates over the last couple of years and don't seem to have had any negative feedback. There are plumbers out there working on 5% margin on materials and hourly rates of $55 - I don't know how they run their businesses. There are definitely days when I think it would be better to stay home and not bother.
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I know what your saying Jaxcat, unfortunately this year there more " better to stay home and not bother" days then others, im still trying to stay positive for 2013 though. Gonna stay in the trenches and fight! :D
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There are plumbers out there working on 5% margin on materials and hourly rates of $55 - I don't know how they run their businesses.
this is where we are at - we were getting 30-40% of priced work - we are now down to 10-15% of priced work
we have to be super efficient - we have an older vehicle fleet, vehicles 5-10yr old (no flash new hiaces or hiluxes), freehold business premises helps, dont spend hrs per day at merchants - most gear is sorted day before and dropped to yard for the following day - things like that
but you are right - effectively running at cost - it is getting to the point of why bother?
hopefully when chch does kick off proper it will lure some tradies there freeing up some jobs and margins...
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Integrated I agree. Our fleet is aging - we haven't purchased a new vehicle for three years. I notice our vehicle maintenance bills are increasing, but the margins are just not there for replacement. We get our merchants to deliver to site, and only our domestic guys call in, but gear is mostly pre-ordered ready for pick up. Costs have increased, but margins have decreased. 5% margins charged by some plumbers can't be sustained, especially when ten per cent retentions are held. We are also noticing some of the major construction companies are getting slower and slower to pay. The CCA seems to have gone out of the window with regards to payment dates and it is almost a pay when paid climate. The introduction of the CCA certainly saw the big players tidy up their act with regards to payments, but I find I am chasing to get the money in by the 30th again in order to stay current with merchants and maintain discounts etc.
Costs for health and safety have risen, membership of organisations subs have increased, fuel, ACC - all on the rise. We too hope when Chch takes off it will suck some of the plumbers down there but who knows. Information says that it is a one company town and that prices etc are being dictated. Interesting if plumbers accept that so easily = especially when Fletchers own Crane and so they are getting pay back in that way as well.
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The economic climate is having an effect but I feel the greatest impact on legitimate business is the black market. Our compliance costs for CPD, Licensing, ACC, OSH etc are continually on the increase and we are told to factor it in to our chargout rate to the consumer but the "under the table guys" don't have those costs and undercut us by 50%.
Obviously the customer will go for the saving rather than the legality. I believe the Government have lost the plot in imposing on the legitimate business as those businesses are on the decline as the black market takes over. Not only will the public loose their protection but the government misses out on GST and tax etc. Perhaps it is time for the customer to be prosecuted along with those working outside the law.
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Back again.
Just for the record I don't begrudge anyone from earning a little extra but for every black market job done it puts a tradesman in legitimate work at greater risk of not having employment. Not everyone wants to be in business and we all know a sole trader can survive easier than someone who employs staff.
If legitimate businesses who employ staff can't operate efficiently and make a profit for the owner they will lay off staff, not employee apprentices and downsize eventually ending up as a sole trader again.
The licensing/training system has been our enemy as well, as the market is flooded with partially trained people and that includes Registered licenced tradespeople who in effect can't do anything unless supervised. I'd better stop before I get really wound up.
Wal
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We are 1.5 hours from Auckland and have noticed a big increase in the number of plumbers (and builders etc) coming from Auckland. There's no way on earth they could be making any money when you take the time and petrol into consideration. With so much time lost in travelling it takes a very long time for the work to get done.
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hi guys, some posts have said:-
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(When ChCh does kick off proper it will lure some tradies there freeing up some jobs and margins...)
Unfortunately it`s going to be a long while, still heaps of demolition to be done.
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(Fletchers own Crane and so they are getting pay back in that way as well.) They also own
Oasis Clearwater and has been rumored that they were in negotiations to buy one of the largest plumbing companies here, don`t know if that is still ongoing.
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(Costs for health and safety have risen, membership of organisations subs have increased, fuel, ACC - all on the rise.)
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Yes the cost of administration of all these organisations has become more important than getting any actual productive work done so there is the clue, drop the tools and get into admin of some sort.
Down here we have insurance assessors/eqc assessors/building company assessors/project manager assessors, all on a very nice hourly rate, I came across a young lady who was working as counter staff at `Plumbing World ‘ some time ago but now is a project manager for a company who does assessments for insurance companies. Between all these people at great cost nothing much gets done to rebuild this city until they finally agree to appoint a`Fletcher`favored company to do some work who then screws some subbies of dubious skills to carry out repairs, remember: “It`s only a scam if you are not in on it” As I said, get into admin, cheers
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Unfortunately all of this is true. We had a call from someone two days ago wanting us to go and turn on their gas after a pressure upgrade. It wasn't one we had a record of and so some more digging turned up the fact that this guy had got a "plumber" to put in his hob but needed it certified and then the gas turned on after the pressure upgrade and so he had told the gas company we were his gasfitters. We talked to him and said we were not prepared to certify "someone" else's work, and that he needed to go back to the bloke that did the job in the first place and tell him he had a legal obligation to certify the job he had done. The potential customer thought we were being harsh, and said it was only a bit of paper, what was the harm. Turns out the guy that did the work isn't a "plumber" either - but an exemption holder, currently on a benefit, and undercutting legitmate business owners. Now did the customer knowingly employ an unlicensed person? And if reported would the Board take that person to Court? I believe they can, but whether they would or not is another matter. The guy at the end of the chain now has an installation that may not be safe or legal, and certainly I think his insurance company would ask questions. We, along with other legitimate tradespeople missed out on a job - and this guy who installed it doesn't have to pay licence fees, upskilling or tax - he's certainly on to a winner.
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hi guys,just to add to the costs:-
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The Government says petrol excise duty is going up by three cents a litre from July next year, and for the next two years after that.
cheers
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One of my vehicles has over 200KM on it, I'm crossing my fingers it will get through 2013 :-\.
I agree with the comments above, the GOVT should be taking cash jobs very seriously. At the end of the day Its costing us our work. I don't even blame every 2nd consumer for asking me "will you do cash?", the hourly charge has increased by over 30% in the last 7 years and the margins halved! Many people tend to decline the quote and attempt it themselves. So who really is benefiting in this circle of love?
I wish I could drop my rates and increase the profit margin so the consumer is not scared away with rates we must charge to keep going.
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Try 245K - Toyotas - you have to love them, they just go and go and go. We have a few in the over 200 thousand Km - regularly serviced though - and showing no signs of problems.
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Hi guys, Look what our minister will be getting while actively supporting the board in charging us tradesmen more than enough, cheers …
While many people struggle financially at Christmas, politicians will be enjoying early holiday cheer with a pay rise. The independent Remuneration Authority has again made an end of year recommendation for a pay increase for the MPs. The pay rise, to be confirmed on Thursday and would be back-paid - giving politicians a Christmas lump sum.
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Hi guys im interested to know whether you are planning on bumping up your rates in 2013. With several good plumbers I pay well when looking at the bottom line with all the licensing fee's, time for CPD etc, I almost feel I need to bump mine up. Not to mention that more and more people delay with payments and the risks are greater then ever. Until now I have not built a risk factor into my rate to accommodate the market but considering it in 2013.
Did you find it easy winning jobs last time you bumped your rates up? Appreciate any feedback.
to answer your question Plumber....yes i will continue to raise my rates. and that is a direct result of over heads that you all have mentioned.and i hate groups like L...er that continue to undercut and employ unqualified people and pgdb let them get away with it !!! >:(
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Turns out the guy that did the work isn't a "plumber" either - but an exemption holder, currently on a benefit, and undercutting legitmate business owners. Now did the customer knowingly employ an unlicensed person? And if reported would the Board take that person to Court? I believe they can, but whether they would or not is another matter. The guy at the end of the chain now has an installation that may not be safe or legal, and certainly I think his insurance company would ask questions. We, along with other legitimate tradespeople missed out on a job - and this guy who installed it doesn't have to pay licence fees, upskilling or tax - he's certainly on to a winner.
I agree Jax - and maybe Wal this could be cause for further investigation by the fed? (hell I may even send this out to local merchants myself) there is definately a required duty there for all
see below - this could be applied to customers as well as merchants who knowingly and willingly supply material and work to unlicensed persons to undertake illegal works
definition below:
Aiding and abetting generally means to somehow assist in the commission of a crime, or to be an accomplice. It involves a plan to commit a crime or to commit acts, the probable consequences of which are criminal.
An accomplice may assist or encourage the main offender with the same intent to have the crime committed, but does not necessarily have to be present when the crime is actually committed. However, without sharing the criminal intent, one who is merely present when a crime occurs and stands by silently is not an accomplice, regardless of the harm that could've been prevented if he/she had acted.
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Try 245K - Toyotas - you have to love them, they just go and go and go. We have a few in the over 200 thousand Km - regularly serviced though - and showing no signs of problems.
460 000 and still going strong (touch wood) :) the old toyota just keeps on going
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A Russian goes into a Lada dealership in Moscow. The salesman greets him and asks if he can be of assistance. 'Yes' he says proudly. ' I am here to but a new Lada'.' Certainly sir' beams the sales man and escorts the man to his office. After they are seated the salesman asks ' what model do you want?' The guy asks 'what models do you have' the salesman replies 'only one' the guy shrugs and say ' I'll have that model then'. The salesman then asks' 'what colour does sir require' the guy asks 'what colour s do you have?' The salesman replies 'black' 'ok, I'll have a black Lada'. They do the paperwork and the salesman then requests a 100% deposit up front. The guy gladly pays and asks 'when can I have one?' The salesman looks at his watch and says ' well, today is the 17th of December your car will be ready for delivery on the 24th of December 2016.' The guy pauses for a moment and calmly enquires 'morning or afternoon?' The salesman is gobsmacked and says 'comrade you are buying a Lada, there is only one colour, you have paid the money up front and I have I have told you there is a four year wait. What does it matter if it is morning or afternoon?' The guy shrugs and says 'I have the plumber coming in the morning'.
May be we need to go to Russia , thought Id lighten this thread up a bit lol
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Love it Peasea ;D
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to answer your question Plumber....yes i will continue to raise my rates. and that is a direct result of over heads that you all have mentioned.and i hate groups like L...er that continue to undercut and employ unqualified people and pgdb let them get away with it !!! >:(
We are also intending on increasing rates in 2013, will see how the public responses and whether we can hold the rate. In 2 days its apparently the end of the world so will see how we go :-X
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Here's a thought for you - it's getting crammed down our throats that the Board are there for the health and safety of the public when in reality it is the trades that provide the service whilst at the same time protecting ourselves from injury.
We keep getting compaired to lawyers and architects for CPD etc so perhaps it's time to put ourselves on level ground with them $300.00 per hour? It would certainly cut our work and create a huge black market but at $300.00 and hour we would only need to do a third of the work we do now and would still be better off.
As for the Government and Board, well they don't care about us so why worry about the black market, the tax they will miss out on, the greater risk to the public created by the government, the loss in ACC Levies, the loss in licensing, the loss in discipline levies, the loss of career opportunities and the loss in apprenticeships.
To me happy people are productive people doing a good job.
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Wall might be on to something here. I went to the dentist the other day and it was $150.00 for 15 minutes. $10.00 per minute. I don't mind doing CPD for that money.
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hmmmm ::) i like Wal's thinking, ...300 sound good to me PER HOUR 8).....PLUS GST ! HA
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Wal - the money you talk is good, but I wouldn't want to see this trade become like architects and engineers - is it only me, or has anyone else noticed how poor the quality of plans and specifications has become? It is all cut and paste and pass the buck. These guys are taking very little responsibility for their work at the same time as clipping the ticket. You know what a "site problem" is - one which the engineer or architect hasn't got a clue how to solve. Some of the stuff they draw just simply won't work - and then there is the quandry - do you allow for what you know they need - but are up against other guys less scrupulous who price it as drawn and then hit them for extras as soon as the job starts. Trouble is, if you are a competent operator you never get away with that because the main contractor will always say, "but you must/should have known." I have seen specifications written by engineers that damn near cost as much as the job is going to cost. They cut and past every thing they can think of because I am sure they work on the premise that the thicker the spec is the more it must be worth. Along comes the poor old plumber who would have done a design and build for half the price of the engineer - and guess what - it would have worked.
So yes Wal, $300 an hour - but I think we are better than them, more professional and more honest. I agree with upskilling, but not CPD which is simply about purchasing points not knowledge. Ticking boxes not improving skills - jumping to the PGDB's tune, not doing what is best for your business.
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We are not only fighting against bureaucracy but we are also fighting against perceptions. We all know people won't pay $300.00 an hour because we are "only trades people". Little do they realise that without the tradespeople their lives would be gas and shit literally.
Most trades people are responsible people with a social conscience. They give people a fair deal but we are being forced into a position that our reputations are at risk due to the bureauractical garbage being piled on us.
Quite frankly I'm getting sick of hearing "its in the interests of public health and safety" - this seems to be the excuse for everything from creating training empires, to not adhering to statute, to imposing illegal taxes. Create a scenario to cover the incompetence.
At the moment we are having to be the public conscience, their protector, their insurance, their bank and we have to be the governments provider of funding by way of tax, paye, employment, ACC etc. If it wasn't for the trades people, this country and all in it would be screwed but does anyone have any respect for us or want to help us - no they don't it is simply left up to us to fend for our selves.
You mark my words that with the direction we are being taken trades and good tradespeople will become a thing of the past.
I feel the industry needs to take a stance. We have been too nice to everyone and they are trampling all over us. If they want to impose extra restriction on us at our cost then we must hand on the costs by way of hourly rate increases or consider this a Government/Board Levy on each invoice to cover the regulation costs. And if people ask what the levy is direct them to the Minister or the Board.
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Jez Wal you're fired up this morning.
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hi guys/watchdog, find some previous posts by "Thunderhead' if you want to see what `fired up` means, (not a criticism of thunder) cheers
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Hi guys, Wal a nail on the head post from you, I’m glad you have control of the rudder and not others that I can think of
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Jax you say (a "site problem" is - one which the engineer or architect hasn't got a clue how to solve) then a skilled tradesman steps in to fix it.
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I totally agree with your (I agree with upskilling, but not CPD which is simply about purchasing points not knowledge) knowledge is also lost on many especially DIY`ers and cowboys as if you don’t have the skill the knowledge is useless.
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(Most trade’s people are responsible people with a social conscience)( more professional and more honest) yes but look at the barriers being put against us all for wanting to earn an HONEST living, cheers
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Hi guys, A quote from info brief from p.g.d.b. web site
In 2013 the Board will go through a process of reaccrediting all the CPD courses to ensure that they have substance and add value for trade’s people and are not simply the “beer and sausage” functions that I have heard criticized. I don`t think tradesmen will be criticizing them, one scam is as good as another, I bet M.Plumbers (i.e. the board) are the ones complaining, cheers
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To sum-up the formula for 2013?
1 x NO CPD - poor plans + 300/hour (happy to negotiate) - cowboys - DIY - bureaucracy + beneficial upskilling + professionalism + honesty = Happy Plumber :)
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Looks like a good advert for a Tui Billboard Plumber!! If only, if only...
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Talk about annoyed consumers, im very tempted to comment on that thread :-\
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/93952-What-do-you-think-(plumbing-costs)/page2
" 80$ an hour for a single bogan in a van, that bites. 110 an hour is just a con. What are they, politicians?
They obviously are getting to much work, next time call someone else!"
come on! that hurts!
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Just noticed the thread is from 2009, they charged 85/hour in 09? What do they charge now? ???
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hi guys/Plumber, this is probably a typical perception of us tradesmen, i think the p.g.d.b. should do a public relation trip in the area that those comments came from, if they knew all the costs involved just to be able to arrive and fix their problems they would probably be more sympathetic. It may be a good idea for someone to inform the complainant to ask the p.g.d.b. why plumbers charge that amount,cheers
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hi guys, did`nt see the 09 reference till i put up my post, however i think my note is still relavent,cheers
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hi guys, just googled `califont `and found some eye raising posts on another forum, the board would have a field day if they investigated some of the work described, here is one example,cheers :-
Re: LPG Gas Hot Water Califonts
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we bought one new from trade-me for $400. The builder installed it himself, Have had no problems with it at all. It heats up all the water for what is now a cottage.
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Oh my goodness :o
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hi guys, yes tip of the iceberg i reacon, you can see who the board should be worried about and targeting,cheers
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wow Robbo! thats just what happens around here, i have found countless installation mostly of infinitys by people who should not be touching the things!.
they screw them to the wall, down to the bbq shop and buy a gas hose, a under sized reg and jobs done !!!!! ???
and even worse is that some of these have been done by plumbers!!! ( who think there gas fitters) oh and to top it off one of them is a member of master plumber!!! :'(
out standing aye >:( :(
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I see this all the time with hot water units.I get called out for warranty work and then tell clients that they are decliend as they have no gas cert. and the install is wrong.Then I'm the A Hole,because they want a cost to fix.
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Its the same where I am mate .....it is all bollox, we need a full enquiry.....I tried to warn about the dodgiest person I have ever seen work with gas, been a member of Master Plumbers, New Zealand Institute of Gas Engineers(resigned the month after a huge explosion), various gas groups....given his ticket after one oral exam. According to the Board he didn't register the last cert at the site of an explosion(although there is an electrical copy on the Boards website) and the copies available AT THE SITE OF AN EXPLOSION have the leak test results empty, but the investigator didn't even ask him about the site of the explosion.....well he was the same guy who gave him the "oral" exam(this jerk wasn't even a plumber, but a gas sales man)
Totally corrupt and nepotistic.....all with the building ministers blessing.
My New Years Resolution is to force this to be looked into.
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i like your thinking Badger ;)......i went through matamata today and looky looky a aber gas multi manifold and reg set with 4 x 45 lpg bottles less than 1.5 m away from 4x instantaneous water heaters on the back wall of the sports club on STATE HIGHWAY 27 !! where the hell is the continuity ???.... it really stinks when one gets screwed over while others get away with bs!!!..grrrr!!!
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i truly agree with robo it is getting harder day by day to get jobs. i am working as a plumber in newzeland. but recession do have lots of impact on every one. seems like i have to move to a less expensive city.