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General Plumbing and Gasfitting Talk => Gas Station => Instantaneous water heaters => Topic started by: bowtieboy on September 10, 2012, 09:13:22 PM

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Title: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 10, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
Hi all, this is my first post  :D
i have read a lot of your posts and found them very informative :)
My question is what is the clearance from a power flued instantaneous external water heater,ie rinnai/bosch/rheem 
to a regulator vent?

regards
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on September 10, 2012, 10:08:39 PM
CLEARANCE TO WHAT?
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 11, 2012, 07:23:45 AM
The required distance between a gas regulator vent and a instantaneous water heater.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: gordyplum on September 11, 2012, 10:05:04 AM
NZS5261 table16[a] should tell you all you need to know. I doubt it has changed with the new regs. It covers minimum clearances and is quite clear. ;)
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 11, 2012, 07:37:24 PM
hi gordyplum, yes table 16 shows clearances from a flue terminal to a meter service of  1 m ....but that does not answer my question...... and it certainly is not correct !!!...does any one else have a answer
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: 07442 on September 11, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
I believe the intention of 5621 in regards to clearance from a meter from an instantaneous water heater is, the flue terminal is considered a source of ignition, the majority of meters have vents on their regulators, which 'vent' under certain conditions...makes sense.
Me - I'd treat your regulator in the same way as a meter.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 12, 2012, 07:38:30 AM
hi 07442, ok........anyone else ? there is a distanace.....what is it.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on September 12, 2012, 05:18:23 PM
if you care to look closer at table 16 Ref d there is also(SEE 2.5.4.9 for vent terminal location of regulator!) it has clearances from a source of ignition ok so now look back too table 16 down to the notes section at bottom of table and see note 4 a flue terminal is considered to ba a source of ignitoion.......easy as pie  :P up to you to work out actual distances...is this what you ment???
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on September 12, 2012, 05:23:18 PM
the whole unit its self i would consider to be a source of ignition and should be placed outside the zone shown in 2.5.4.9 (b)...but what do i know im only a plumber...
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: 07442 on September 12, 2012, 07:05:26 PM
As far as distances from a regulator go. Put the reg against it if you want to. Just pipe the vent away from the unit, or change the reg to an opso (spelling?) - it doesn't vent. Just locks out.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 12, 2012, 07:35:06 PM
hi thunderhead :) thank you for your thoughts.
 But yet i am to get a correct answer. you are right about 2.5.4.9.

i am asking this question because i have the correct answer after been audited by pgdb.  :(

i have my own understanding. yet pgdb say i am wrong, and i bet everyone out there doing gasfitting is too!
........the correct answer as pgdb say is 3 metres from a fan forced gas appliance to a gas regulator vent, regardless of it been a lpg or natural gas venting regulator!
they say gas appilances that draw air in mechancially come under 2.5.4.9 and must be 3 metres from a venting regulator!!
are you all aware? am i a dumb arse that has been doing my job wrong for the last 20 years?
i was at the boards lanch of nzs5261 2003... i read it the same way everyone in the room did....i have been audited 6 times yet this has never been raised!.
what do you all think?
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: 07442 on September 12, 2012, 09:07:34 PM
I'll have a closer look at my code tomorrow Again
I think the board is trying to justify their existence with some random bit of shit from the code that they themselves have probably just discovered.
I'll do a little 'test' tomorrow. The owner of the company I work for, amongst others had a big part in the writing of 5261, credited inside the cover along with a bunch of other industry heavy hitters.
I'll see what his answer is.
It does make sense though from a safety point of view.
I imagine there are thousands of non compliant installations out there, a few of them mine, now I've been made aware of this info.
P.s. f**** the pgdb - useless leeching rain of bastards that they are.

Thank you and have a nice day.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 13, 2012, 01:19:53 PM
hi guys, my reading of 2.5.4.9.and is the only reference to 3mtrs that i can find, and that is in the direction of discharge(straight out)and .500mm sideways so what is the problem,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Jaxcat on September 13, 2012, 02:02:22 PM
The other solution is to put a piece of PE (polytherm) pipe off the regulator vent and terminate it away.  That would make it compliant.  We agree that 2.5.4.9 Vent terminal location in 5261 is the one to use and it says under (a) Be at least 3m from a mechanical air inlet unless calculations based on figure 1 give a great distance....

Those with COC level 2A would have gone over this in their training. 

Might be a good source of an upskilling course and give the  chance for people to discuss their interpretations.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 13, 2012, 03:54:21 PM
hi robbo, no 2.5.4.9 a doesnt say straight out, its in ALL directions... and yes it would be a good upskill jaxcat
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 13, 2012, 09:04:33 PM
hi guys, the way i read it ,it says and shows in diagram"direction of discharge" and also indicates measuement of radius. If you see the note referring to 2.5.1.2(f) it says:- "Positioning to minimize the possibility of ignition of any discharge from a breather vent, so in the case of 2.5.4.9 (c) that is what you follow,cheers   
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 14, 2012, 07:44:45 AM
yes true Robbo, so what would you consider the clearance to be then?..... the other thing i would like to ask is who is the one person/organisation that a gas fitter can go to to get this issue clearly definded?
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 14, 2012, 08:36:44 AM
hi guys,(yes true Robbo, so what would you consider the clearance to be then?) the way the reg reads i guess it could be anything!
 Trade practices are passed down from Tradesman to Apprentice apart from classroom learned theory. We do some things a certain way and know them to be right without always knowing the exact regulation wording or the technical reason for it. This may be one of those areas where the regulation is not fully understood but the practice is correct,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Jaxcat on September 14, 2012, 11:29:14 AM
The PGDB have the final say I guess.  The owner of the GMS can define the hazardous area around their unit - but good luck on trying to get them to committ to that in writing. 

It is covered off pretty well in 5261 - it's just that the interpretation of various gasfitters differs - it would be interesting to see what trainees are being taught at tech about this and in their distance learning.

You can also check with someone like Arie de Kort who does a lot of the COC Level 2A training for mains and services and see what he teaches in his course (which incidently is  very good course).

Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: 07442 on September 14, 2012, 08:40:27 PM
The owner of my company is calling it BS.
His name is inside the front page of 5261.
My manager is also calling it BS, but I'm not so convinced.
Their argument.. Its not a mechanical inlet to a building. It a fan forced external appliance.
So.....?...
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on September 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
With the operation of the fan, products of combustion are being forced out and clean air is being induced i think there is clear argument that this is a mechanical inlet.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 15, 2012, 09:16:46 AM
hi guys, if the vent on the regulator operates to expell gas because of a reg fault there will not be enough gas pressure to operate the water heater,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 16, 2012, 03:46:01 PM
hi guys, well some very good comments :D. i would sugest you all tell any one and everyone you know that its 3 meters and be prepared that the board is looking for installations like mine!, this clearance will included ALL fan forced appilances including energy savers, radiator boilers like the immergas etc all that "have mecanicial air intakes".
i just cant believe this has never come up before now.
 :(
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 16, 2012, 09:20:55 PM
hi guys/bowtieboy, yes 3mtrs it is if possible or otherwise follow the code:-2.5.4.9/2.5.1.2(f), thats my answer,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 20, 2012, 08:02:37 AM
here is a curve ball for you all to think about and i think i will ask pgdb this....

if the pgdb say a rinnai infinity external water heater is an "mechanical air intake" then it must have its flue teminal 1m away! that makes ALL instandaneous water heaters on the market non conpliant! as per nzs5261 table 16 ref k.

Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 20, 2012, 08:52:33 AM
hyi guys, i would say that the designers and engineering team at Rinnai would have no problem dismissing views submitted by the combine brains of the board,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 20, 2012, 07:00:42 PM
i wish Robbo...i have a meeting with mr pgdb tomorrow, he is in my town and wants to audit another one of my jobs!!! hmmmm.
i am now wondering why i am getting audited again??? two months since the last one??
watch this space!! >:(
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Jaxcat on September 20, 2012, 09:50:12 PM
Bowtie - you have a right to know why you are being audited - if it is a competency audit then there are rules around how they must conduct themselves with you.  Just who is it that is auditing you.  Be thoughtful about what information you give them and decline to answer if you feel they are trying to trap you.  You could also take someone with you as a witness if you felt it necessary. 

If they are doing a competency audit then I thought they needed to advise you in writing about why etc.   If they have not given sufficient notice then you can decline to meet them.  You have every right to know WHY they are auditing you - has their been a complaint?  Be careful - be professional, but also err on the side of silence.  If they have questions for you ask them to submit them to you in writing so you can consider what they are asking and how you will answer.  Say that you may want to take it all under advisement.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on September 20, 2012, 10:44:23 PM
hi guys,/Bowtieboy, good advice from Jax play it cool be vague if not sure don`t incriminate yourself, you should know which job is to be audited so you can organise entry to the property, go early to talk with client, make sure they do not have a problem if they do fix it before the audit takes place,good luck and keep us informed,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on September 22, 2012, 01:38:52 AM
soon its going to get to such a state that you will have to take along your lawyer with you and revise every question through him!.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Jaxcat on September 22, 2012, 07:35:58 AM
Soon Thunder?  I would have thought that stage has well and truly arrived with the debacle with Paul Gee.  If I had any of my staff being audited I would not for one minute leave them alone with the auditor - and that's not becasue I think any of them do not do their work 100% correctly, it's because I don't trust the PGDB in any way, shape or form.  The evidence is there for all to see - 44 particulars of bollocks for Paul Gee and the poor bugger has been roasted - and when the charges fall over and over and over - do they apologise, do they say - hell we made a massive cock up on that one - no.  Their investigative procedures and processes are sloppy to say the least and no one wants to be caught up in three years of hell.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 22, 2012, 05:06:09 PM
hi all, well my audit went well, the guy was very informative and explained why i was the case of a random audit. we discussed a number of issues and i said to him why the hell isn't the board communicating with EVERYONE about these issues!!
in all i was pleased with the format of the aduit.
ps. the board reads this forum ;)
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on September 24, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
we all know the board reads this form as there trying to gauge what is happening out there and ways to counter any possible action funny how they were running at a defficit and as soon as we mention that we could all refuse to pay our fees to send them bankrupt it is very funny how all of a sudden they mannage to run at a surplus and have a nice little piggy bank stash of our money sitting there waiting for such an event!...were not stupid we can see whats happening even without knowing whats happening...so why should a charity run a surplus of funds??? is my question?
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: 07442 on September 24, 2012, 06:49:13 PM
Can someone confirm my take on it. There is a small clause in there under the diagram in 2.4.5.9
"does not apply to a breather vent" or similar wording....
Which rules out all of the domestic lpg changeover systems that I come into contact with.

Thoughts anyone?

Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on September 24, 2012, 08:03:59 PM
hi 07442, i would bet the board would say that's a regulator classed as a non ventilating type
regards
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on October 08, 2012, 06:57:33 PM
Does any one know of a non venting lpg change over regulator set ? ie, opso??
regards
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on October 11, 2012, 05:07:27 PM
Can someone confirm my take on it. There is a small clause in there under the diagram in 2.4.5.9
"does not apply to a breather vent" or similar wording....
Which rules out all of the domestic lpg changeover systems that I come into contact with.

Thoughts anyone?

dont you mean 2.5.4.9  :P i was looking for 2.4.5.9 for a while quite perplexed as to where it was.... then it dawned on me  ;D
by this do they mean the pin hole driphram breather vent much the same as the pin hole breather vent on a prv to allow the non working side if the driphram to vent to atmosphere to allow correct movement of said diaphram allowing correct working working of valve?
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: 07442 on October 11, 2012, 10:49:07 PM
Yes. My mistake. Transposed the numbers , the clause is there - breather reglators are excluded, only applies to a venting regulator.

This is purely my opinion on my interpretation of the code. The PGDB probably have some sick twisted interpretation of the same thing, so they can persecute me into bankruptcy.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Thunderhead on October 12, 2012, 06:09:01 PM
i would have to agree with you it only applies to venting regulators
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on October 12, 2012, 07:43:50 PM
this is my ten cents, isn't it about time that venting regulators where band ? they are dangerous! make all regulators non venting fail safe. end of story???? like tempering valves!!! its not rocket science !
designed to lock out when the out let pressure exceed 7 kpa....what do you think?
realistly, when a regulator vents the gas disperses and the further away form the vent the lower the fuel to air ratio is....
which equates to less chance of ignition....
Then we have 5261. and the boards interpretion of it! !  !  ??? a air intake has been taken way beyond what the team of people that wrote nzs5361 believed it would.  and then there is clearance from a opening into a building that they have interpreted too !!!
i power flued water heater can be mounted 300 mm to the side of a window......so why not under it????or above it ????? what is the difference???? ....answer... there is NO difference, full stop. and all of you practicing gas fitters know it.
fact!
1 the unit mounts on the wall out from the window/ door.
2 power flue expels the products of combustion away from the building and the opening too that building.
3 the products are then diluted by mixing with air by means of the fan force and with heat of the products including water vapour .
4 why doesnt the pgdb listen to the ones who know what they are doing????
..... 8)my ten cents....again.
AND what can be done about this??????
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on October 12, 2012, 09:04:39 PM
hi guys/Bowtieboy,you say:(i power flued water heater can be mounted 300 mm to the side of a window)
 That is only if the unit is 200m/j or less otherwise it is 1500mm.  Rheem have on special at Micos a 27ltr unit at the moment  that is 205mj per hr, don`t get caught out and fit them to close.  Most of the places that i fit w/heates to do not have enough space between windows to use them,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on October 15, 2012, 11:43:17 AM
hi guys, this is a copy of `Contacts`acceptable solutions to venting/non-venting regulators,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Plumber on October 15, 2012, 02:58:21 PM
Brilliant information cheers Robbo
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on October 15, 2012, 07:41:26 PM
yes great stuff Robbo,
 but according to pgdb, meter clearances are NOT gas fitting in the context of nzs5261, and the same goes for lpg bottle location, check nzs5261, the info on bottle location is informative only!!.
that's where i had come unstuck. you would think if a vent on a meter regulator is ok to be that close to an ignition source, that it would INCLUDE a gas appliance, the board think otherwise!
very miss leading and i believe its wrong. if a regulator vents, there must be a determind safe zone that works across the board. and why the hell didn't the people that wrote the standard get it right and consistant.instead they just copied another standard nearly word for word...very disappointing. :-X
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on October 15, 2012, 07:46:27 PM
Why don't you ask one of the Investigators or the ESS for a ruling/advice.....they are the ones to enforce it after the install, get them to put in their 2 cents worth before .....goodluck.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on October 15, 2012, 08:05:19 PM
yes, one of them could post their thoughts here! :)
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on October 15, 2012, 09:03:41 PM
hi guys, ( but according to pgdb, meter clearances are NOT gas fitting in the context of nzs5261) if it is not `gasfitting` then what is it, i would take the information from the gas supplier as `an acceptable solution` which i am sure that they would back in a dispute,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: integrated on October 15, 2012, 09:41:10 PM
but according to pgdb, meter clearances are NOT gas fitting in the context of nzs5261)


would this merely be the case in order to satisfy larger corporate industry or infrastructure providers so they can continue work regardless of qualifications or lack there of?
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on October 16, 2012, 08:19:52 AM
hi guys/Bowtieboy,you say:(i power flued water heater can be mounted 300 mm to the side of a window)
 That is only if the unit is 200m/j or less otherwise it is 1500mm.  Rheem have on special at Micos a 27ltr unit at the moment  that is 205mj per hr, don`t get caught out and fit them to close.  Most of the places that i fit w/heates to do not have enough space between windows to use them,cheers
over 200mj fan assisted is 500 mm horizontally from openings  ;)
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on October 16, 2012, 12:22:55 PM
hi guys/Bowtieboy,where did you get that info, (5261 page 101,table 16/j, says over 200mj is 1500mm,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: o2b007 on October 16, 2012, 01:02:13 PM
Robbo
this was amended in may '05' to 500mm
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on October 16, 2012, 08:11:23 PM
hi guys, o2b007, can you show/point me to the documentation,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on October 16, 2012, 08:38:39 PM
hi guys, found the amendment, i had it all the time on the computer but had`nt taken much notice of the updates,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on November 27, 2012, 07:10:02 PM
i note that there has been over 2000 views of this topic since i posted it.....yet to date not one word from either pgdb or energy safety on the matter.
this is not good enough. if a audit happens and you are directed to change some thing because of your  interpretation, why doesn't pgdb tell all about the right/ or their interpretation of that part of the code....
would all of you want to know if your doing something wrong ?????? ???
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: gordyplum on November 27, 2012, 08:06:22 PM
just remember their quote,it's not cost effective to provide any information or advise! >:(
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on June 14, 2013, 07:43:34 AM
A very big thumps up to rinnai's John Swarbrick for sorting the 3m clearance rule! common sense DOES prevail ! 
good on you John :D
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: integrated on June 14, 2013, 04:20:51 PM
hear hear!!


 :)
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: foggy on June 14, 2013, 08:53:06 PM
Good to read that Rinnai could get some clarification on this 3m distance.
I'll never understand why the gas regs can't be written in plain English instead of some vague lawyers speak where everyone could come to a different conclusion on what something means.
Does this mean that anyone who has failed an audit on this matter will be reimbursed for time and costs?
On a similar note can anyone tell me what type of jobs will have to be registered on the high risk data base cause the more i read it the more i'm confused.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 15, 2013, 09:32:02 AM
Foggy mate, they want you to make mistakes, or they can't call us incompetent and insist on CPD and disciplinary fee's(some of which are illegal!).....I asked at a "standards" meeting why it wasn't written in plain English, the guy taking the meeting told me that they did just wasn't anyone off the street to be able to read it!

This was just after I asked why in the UK we are banned from running gas pipe in a wall, it is meant to be sleeved and sealed both ends, if it just passes through a wall.....his reply and I kid you not was...........

The difference between NZ and the UK is that you have cavity walls in Britain and here they are classed as a wall cavity..... :(

A guy who co-authored the NZ 5261 is an investigator, this same cunt, said that the system wouldn't fail just because of me and that before I dob anyone in I should make sure my own house is in order.....this was said at an interview for an explosion. when I tried to tell him about my old boss....who I found out later had his ticket granted after one oral exam....by the same investigator.


Here's one for you, how come you can have a mechanical inlet to a building 1000mm above a power flue, the table 16 specifically mentions a spa blower(which is actually a sucker, not blower, from out side to inside), a powerful vacuum fan sucking outside atmosphere into a (in most cases) one of the smallest rooms in a home, by many cubic meters per minute, a room which when in use will be full of steam coming from the bath that the occupier is actually sat in, the blower only operating when they are sat in it, literally placing the outside atmosphere literally under his/her nose.........but a passive "non" sucking open window has to be 1500mm above a powered flue.......there is no consistency or logic in this.....but I got called incompetent by Bickers in my local paper after answering and blowing away 42 charges out of 44 in a very biased hearing, the last charge being for a clearance to a window............they are full of shit mate and want you to fail if it suits their agenda. Been there got the tee shirt.

If it was written in plain English and no one made mistakes they would become redundant, all done at a risk to the public.....yeah nice up standing people, real leaders.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 15, 2013, 09:37:48 AM
oops, sorry guys, if my spell check don't catch it, I am fecked.


the guy taking the meeting told me that they did just wasn't anyone off the street to be able to read it!



that's meant to be "they didn't want just anyone off the street"....you see, I am dyslexic, so I feel your pain in trying to read this bullshit wording in the regs, I have met a lot of people who are, in the trades.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on June 15, 2013, 10:57:43 AM
hi guys/Badger don`t worry we can read it perfectly, try this one,cheers:-
...
 Good example of a Brain Study: If you can read this OUT LOUD you have a strong mind. And better than that: Alzheimer's is a long, long, ways down the road before it ever gets anywhere near you.
7H15 M3554G3 53RV35 7O PR0V3 H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5! 1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5! 1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG 17 WA5 H4RD BU7 N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3 Y0UR M1ND 1S R34D1NG 17 4U70M471C4LLY W17H 0U7 3V3N 7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17, B3 PROUD! 0NLY C3R741N P30PL3 C4N R3AD 7H15. PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F  U C4N R34D 7H15.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 15, 2013, 11:28:57 AM
Hahaha that's how I f****ing spell.....cheers Robbo, I can read that better than normal writing lol,

Might ask the Board to translate a copy of the regs into that for me...made my Saturday mate, cheers buddy
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on June 15, 2013, 11:40:04 AM
hi guys/badger, now that you have mastered that one try this, it may be worth points for deciphering the gas regs,cheers
...
 If you can raed this, you have a sgtrane mnid, too.
Can you raed this? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can
be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 15, 2013, 12:02:00 PM
That's crystal mate, haha...can I get an app that does that for me automatically.... ;)

The thing is.... like all languages, if you don't speak it fluently you can't truly understand it or any meaning contained therein.....we all can, with a slight grasp of " legalise" which is based in English.... well we can read it all, but sometimes the meaning/intention is misunderstood......

I find it ironic that our regs are written by lawyers in legalise.....for tradesman to decipher and reference......who, if they misread/misinterpret it.... end up in court at the mercy of.....you guessed it.....lawyers!

And the Board won't give you an opinion or translation.....until you make a mistake, then you can't stop them telling you what its all about, feck they'll even bend the interpretation to suit themselves......

Set up to fail....and we pay for it too.

Remember the bollox about having to put markers through your copy of regs for the bi-annual audits....to prove you had read it!, how about a f****ing index, set up alphabetically.....so if you want to know about vents....look under V....FFS its a reference book.....

IT SHOULD BE WRITTEN IN PLAIN ENGLISH, WITH PLAIN CAN/CAN NOT DO INSTRUCTIONS, if you need a translation for a reference book.....well its been badly written.

How many tradies do you know who speak legalise.....we are practical people, who need practical instructions....its as easy as that.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on June 15, 2013, 12:48:01 PM
Hi guys/Badger, I agree totally it`s the exact understanding that is needed which is not always easy if the writer has not explained in a fully understandable way.
Perhaps this explanation` rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe.` could be used as a defence in case of prosecution`   
  Also I totally agree about the `Index` for the regs book, I remember on an audit occasion trying to find the section that had answer to the question asked, takes time which you don`t have,cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 15, 2013, 01:00:46 PM
Its a reference book, not the f****ing Da Vinchy Code .....If your real intention is to protect the public's health and safety.....you would write it plain and simple, but....

If your intention is to protect your little empire, then you would place minefields all around you.....

I KNOW that the Board protect some and then screw over others....ignoring bad, real bad "gasfitters", then screwing over very good gasfitters (not talking about me either), I know this.

Where is that going to lead?

It will make the incompetent ones, who have the connections, more brazen, and then if they take out their competition (who if they could out do them by fair business and quality of work, they would be no competition in the first place)....where will it lead?

Face it guys our careers and sources of income is being/has been hijacked by corrupt, bureaucratic leeches, who are willing to put the public in jeopardy to further their agenda , fact.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on June 16, 2013, 08:33:44 PM
foggy said....Does this mean that anyone who has failed an audit on this matter will be reimbursed for time and costs?... :(

so, ....do all the gas fitters who have had to alter thier installations going to be compensated?? i bet not!!! this just makes me pist off..
i dont take kindly to someone making me do something, which was against my own common sense, as i consider myself competent,then to find out that THEY where wrong!!!!
this bs has to stop!
pgdb are wasting OUR time and OUR money.
i am VERY dissapointeed in the staff at pgdb for NOT using THEIR brains, like we do! >:(
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 17, 2013, 07:37:12 AM
It is ironic that those at the PGDB who have been proven to be incompetent don't have to do any CPD......

Ironic that the ones most in need of CPD......tell everyone else they need CPD. Contradictory Professional Development, ;).
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 18, 2013, 08:05:29 AM
Just noticed the post on this thread with the amendments, making the 1500mm clearances to a window 500mm.....I am just wondering what year did the laws of physics change? should we let the scientific community know?

I mean if the regs say it, it is law.....and fact?

Have a look inside the NZ5261 cover and look who wrote it....very informative....

We can all read a diagram and use a tape measure......so please write it in plain English.

The only thing they had on me was the use of an alternative to the NON mandatory part two of NZ 5261, ironically for the only 1500mm measurement that they didn't make 500mm :o.....make it compulsory if it is in fact compulsory.... stop ruining lives just for your own agenda and ego massage.....
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 18, 2013, 08:18:20 AM
My measurement was 540mm.....the rinnai document allowed for 500mm and the british Standard allowed for 300mm.......this is the only thing they had on me........Bickers, who saw all the withheld evidence and bullshit that went on.....and runs a course called "the role of the professional witness"...... went public in a press release with.....



Board chairman Alan Bickers said in a statement last night the board was concerned by Mr Gee's apparent lack of knowledge and appreciation of the applicable regulatory provisions for gasfitting.

"While the board understands that the disciplinary process can be stressful for parties, Mr Gee's evidence at the hearing raised serious concerns about his understanding of some fundamental aspects of the gasfitting trade."  

What a sanctimonious twat....
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: robbo on June 18, 2013, 08:35:44 AM
hi guys/Badger, (I mean if the regs say it, it is law.....and fact?) it was a guess by someone who did not do a scientific analysis,(My measurement was 540mm,the rinnai document allowed for 500mm and the british Standard allowed for 300mm,this is the only thing they had on me) then you were correct, how did you let them nail you on it? cheers
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 18, 2013, 09:43:55 AM
Mate I didn't let them, the Board's steamroller of a system is totally out of your control and the system is corrupt.....I am amazed we did so well, not because of any fault in my work (I think through out this bullshit my work has been shown to be very good), but because how uneven the process is, hats off to my good mate Wal....big time.

Out of the 44 charges this one, that's ONE, was the one I thought I had the ability to answer the best, because I knew it was safe and the customer said it was safe and I had documents.....so didn't put as much effort/research into it, and then with then the only other charge found to be "of substance" was for signing this job off. The only two out of forty f****ing four charges!!!! and Bickers says I am not good at my job!!!

I didn't bring up the British Standard at the hearing because I have been shot down many many times, too many times, by people for beginning a sentence with "in the UK...", especially by those in positions of power....I had even been threatened for saying just that. And given the only certifying gasfitter present was British, with a long history in his family of being in the trade in the UK, thought that what I had said was enough, I drew diagrams, made statements.....but they don't tell you until weeks later what their "findings" are. Look up Graham Hardie's "info brief", issued by the Board, when he joined the Board....ask your self should he have known about this british standard..... ::)


I didn't let them mate.....when I found out, months later, I paid $5000.00 to take it to high court to appeal (you can't tell them either way in their own kangaroo court).....by now we had already lost a lot and could ill afford that 5 grand, but did it on principle. I WAS mortgage free, now I have a 50% mortgage...all for something I spent 6 years trying to warn about before it happened.

The Board were allowed to adduce (add evidence after my hearing) that they should be given more weight to their opinion as they were made up of learned professionals and were "THE" Board.....this was allowed....

I tried to adduce the British Standard, but they stuck to the rules on that one....you are not allowed to adduce for the appeal (unless you are the Board apparently). I even had a letter from the Dept of Building and Housing, written by someone that appears inside the cover of NZ5261 as a co-author of NZ5261....saying I could use a alternative standard if it was relevant.....this British Standard specifically referred to a power flue and an opening window directly above that powered flue, you can't get more relevant. But I wasn't allowed to adduce either.

So I got wrapped up in legal loop holes and legalise by lawyers, and totally let down by a fellow British Gasfitter and fellow Master Plumber.

This is one of my main bones of contention....I lost on a legal ruling NOT SAFETY OR PERFORMANCE OR ANY PRACTICAL PERFORMANCE BASED "IN REALITY" , BUT ON THE LEGAL "OPINION" of a lawyer, being paid a lot of money by the Board to win....so the laws of physic's are different in NZ  from the UK.....I know the water goes down the plug whole a different way........but that is BECAUSE of the laws of physics, not contrary to them. Hot air/fumes rise any where on this planet....unless your on the moon.

So the expert professional Board (with the only certifying gasfitter being British) didn't know about the British Standard (is that my short coming or the Board's?), and I wasn't allowed to adduce anything, even though the Judge had read all that I was trying to adduce!!!!!!!!, basically we got shut down....and it cost me $5000.00, would have been 4 to 5 times that if I had used a lawyer....but Wal came to my aid and helped me, as he did at the kangaroo court......HE DID THIS FOR NOTHING. If it wasn't for Wal.....well lets just say, my lawyer who cost 1000's and 1000's of dollars told me to plead guilty to everything!!!!! but I got a 95% innocence result.


Of note the lawyer for the Board tried to say we couldn't even appeal, there is heaps more but I am keeping that stuff to my self until the inquiry.



Look at the fiasco with the classifications for gas work now.......written by lawyers in lawyers speak.....for you to decipher and then explain to a lawyer at a hearing with your way of life and reputation on the line.....good luck with that......

Telling you now guys...... get up off your comfy seats now and do something....or they will pick you off one by one.....until only the people who are spewing this bullshit are left.....where you will either work for them or do something else, or try to work under the radar.....

Tell me....Why has a really good career, a great career for practical/physical/switched on people who don't want to work in an office, loving the freedom of "the van".........why has it got so f****ing complicated and bloody expensive?? I know why..... I have met them.......and they are corrupt and open to cronyism......

I know you read this site......where's my fancy lawyers letter threatening me with a slander suit......thing is it ain't slander if it is based in truth.....pack of dodgy bastards.....
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Badger on June 18, 2013, 09:57:28 AM
Basically the rules only apply to you.....they will change the rules at will......even the minister is now trying to change a law to make the illegal ....legal.

It is a slanted playing field, peppered with mines, with their ref and rules.....rules which they change/ignore to suit them or their mates....

I am amazed that me and Wal did so well, with everything, and I mean everything stacked against us.

And I am, to the point of being accused of being paranoid, a stickler for the regs......and I got a 95% innocence finding but was still publically slated by Bickers in my local paper.
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: bowtieboy on July 03, 2013, 07:50:49 PM
Does anyone know when the amendment's to nzs5601 will be legal to apply? or do we just keep putting lpg regulators 3m away from instantaneous power flued water heaters. ? :( :( :( ::)
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: NZMoose on August 21, 2013, 07:41:39 PM
Hi,

Sorry to restart an old debate, but actually the answer to this depends on the gas type.

In a bottled LPG installation, the regulator is install by a gasfitter under NZS5601.1, which requires a clearance of 3m from a mechanical air inlet. (Board is correct here.)

In a reticulated NG or LPG installation, the regulator and it's vent is NOT installed by a gasfitter.  It is installed under NZS5258, which gives 2 zones of clearance around the GMS.  A instantaneous water heater can be installed in zone 2, but not zone 1.  Zone 1 is defined as 800mm either side of the service riser.  Therefore, if the gasfitter installs his Infinity at the 1m clearance given in table 6.2 NZS5601.1 it does comply.  The regulator vent is not considered as gasfitting, therefore the 3m clearance is not required.

Thanks
Title: Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
Post by: Macmole on June 21, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
I know this is an old post but does this statement from Rinnai classing it as a combustion inlet for an appliance mean there is only 500mm needed from the regulator vent ?. I come across a lot of installations where the bottles are just to the side of the infinity

https://rinnai.co.nz/attachments/docs/vent-terminal-location-as-nzs-5601-1-clarifica.pdf