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Sink or Swim
Government and Board put on notice of industrial action.
What is the value of a CPD point?
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Honest question, what will you do when inspectors refuse to pass your work because your not authorised?
I'm assuming you intend to not pay fees next year and so won't be "authorised". While this might hurt the PGD board you'll be hurting when your work can't get passed. If you ignore the council and cover up your work against a failed notice it'll be you at risk of getting a NTF or infringement notice addressed to you. Just thought I'd put that out there as the council's have to ensure work they approve is done by authorised persons only. They won't have sympathy for your plight.
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Another thought, because your not "authorised" you potentially fall under the court system not the board disciplinary system as they deal inhouse with "authorised" persons only I believe. Therefore if they prosecute you through the court I would imagine the costs will be paid by you by order of the court if you lose. It won't actually be a cost to them. They'll simply pass it on to a law firm to act for them and carry on with their own work dealing with the other 6 thousand(can't remember how many tradespeople are outside of the Federation but guessing that many, correct me please) people who will pay the licence fees.
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Actually TS - there is room in the Act to have the Board consider your application for a licence under certain conditions, and it could be that 1000 or more people decide to write to the Board and request their application be considered. The Board meet 6 weekly and it is possible that there could be a 2 month period where the Board are considering the 1000 or more applications. I think if you check - you can still work legally while the application is considered.
On another note - oh that all council inspectors were as vigilant as you. We followed a "plumber" to a job inspected by a council inspector last week. The inspector had taken the chap's word for it that his "papers were being checked" had inspected the job, found some problems, told him to remedy them and then was back to check they were remedied when we arrived. The job was a mess, the guy had no license, no exemption and was not known to the PGDB. Two calls - one to the PGDB and one to the Inspector's boss soon sorted the issue out. Perhaps the 1000 Federation people who don't renew their licenses might get inspected by an inspector like this one? Who knows?
I understand what you are saying, and I know you have a job to do - but sometimes peaceful resistance is needed in order to get someone to sit up and take notice. If you read the Board Annual Report you will see there are 720 odd less license holder than last year - do you think all of these people have retired, died or moved to Australia. i think not, i would say we already have a substantial number practising without licenses.
The Federation has always preached get legal or get out - this situation is different - people will still be asked to pay their licence fees - perhaps just in to a suspensary account - it's not about the money, it's about a principle.
On another note, I am pleased some inspectors are asking to see the card. Makes me think there is hope yet that we can rid the industry of interlopers.
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Finally, yes you are right, when you do not hold a licence you are prosecuted through the court system - the fines and costs are SUBSTANTIALLY less through this sytem than through the Board's own disciplinary system. Kind of crazy don't you think. And it never costs the PGDB - it always costs the practitioner becasue all income to them comes from practitioners. The cost to prosecute far outweigh any fines and costs they get back - an the balance goes to the government.
I would like to see a court system that can cope with 1000 people who haven't paid their licence fees - the PGDB would go bankrupt overnight trying to prosecute them through the Court - especially with the cost of outsourcing it all to barristers who charge like wounded bulls. Now that would be something!
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Hi Everyone.
The assumption made by TS is an action that could be taken and some have already taken that action.
There are many more ways to protest and the Federation is exploring them all to get what is most effective to get our message across.
The Board has statutory requirements it must meet and needs tradespeople so it can. Without the support of the industry they are nothing but another tax department that collects money to pay to go around in circles without improvement.
The industry does not belong to the Board or the Government it's ours and it will remain that way.
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Honest question, what will you do when inspectors refuse to pass your work because your not authorised?
I'm assuming you intend to not pay fees next year and so won't be "authorised". While this might hurt the PGD board you'll be hurting when your work can't get passed. If you ignore the council and cover up your work against a failed notice it'll be you at risk of getting a NTF or infringement notice addressed to you. Just thought I'd put that out there as the council's have to ensure work they approve is done by authorised persons only. They won't have sympathy for your plight.
simple solution to to your not so large problem TS...very simple indeed....You do not undertake any works that need to be singed off by council...and i can tell you theres plenty of renos going on that arnt council involved and also theres a shit load of maintance work also out there TS which surprise surprise dont involve the council!
And the idea here TS is that we act on mass which is something your failing to reckonise when the people stand togeather strong they will be heard...
Effectivley you go underground...one of my previous employers worked inderpendantley for 15 years on a licensed plumbers license before finally getting his craftsman license....and he only got it because he moved into the new housing market...So TS where there is a WILL there is ALWAYS a way!
Example the ports of aucklands dispute the people stood togeather and won enough public support to acheive a common scense resoulition...for goodness sake TS were not asking for the earth to be moved all we want is parity between the trades, cpd to be required when a deficensy is actually found not a dollars for points scam! and some not so stuck up heavy handed regulation!
And i have come to the conclusion TS that you actually are being payed to post the negitave comments on this site as i have never heard anything postive come from your posts, Do you never see the silver lining around the cloud?...do you view life in this way? Im only asking this as i am very perplexed as to why you only focus on the negitave aspects of this saga, remember TS there is ALWAYS light at the end of the tunnel, dont dwell on the shit around you focus on the end result...this is not intended to offend TS just an obersation of someone who gives a shit.
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Nah Thunder, he would do it for free, just wondering what your plan for "victory on the ground" is TS? ..... but the bigger question is ....what side do you wish that victory for?
Have you read the cover up I have put on here.....do you still think TS that these people are up to the job?? and are people of integrity??
Totally Sucked in.....
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Just highlighting things you guys need to consider so you don't get stung as a result of your emotional decisions. Sure some of you may get plenty of work which doesn't require a consent. Remember however that under the Building Act it is only exempted from needing a consent if done in accordance with the Plumbers, Gasftitters and Drainlayers Act. If your not authorised than your doing illegal work and not acting lawfully.
If the Council comes across you doing this your liable for a NTF or Infringement notice which doesn't go through the court system. This could cost you, the individual, not your company, a minimum of $500 on the spot and subsequent fines if you don't take the necessary action under the notice.
For sure, run the risk if you like but the world won't stop because your unlicensed. The Board will get bailed out by the Government and if necessary punish the rest of us by increasing fees again.
I'm not paid to be negative on here but its the only thing I can contribute on this topic as I'm thinking from a realist point of view. Sure it may be different to how you guys see things but I'm thinking with my head not my heart.
If my advice is not in any way helpful then I'll simply stop posting on here and leave you merry men to your keyboard warrior battles.
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Hi Everyone
Bickering amongst ourselves will achieve nothing but division. All of you have good points and the way forward is to find common ground. TS has highlighted some good points which the Federation has already taken into account.
I find his devils advocate role very useful as we can't think of everything all the time. TS can you tell us more about the instant fines you mentioned and what types of offences for example do they cover non registered people doing plumbing?
Stay united guys and feed off each others experience.
Regards
Wal
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Happy to but it'll be either tomorrow or Monday when I can get into the office.
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Whats your advice on the issues industry face TS?
Do nothing,keep going to work and see where we end up in 2022 ?? Thats all ive picked up so far
I personally find that the rate of financial expense placed on practitioners by the board is unsustainable at the current rate. I base this opinion on looking back to say 2002. I will sit down and come up with some figures to back up what I am saying.
Its not hard to see that the financial increases including projected CPD cost, on an individual practitioner over the last ten years are well above inflation rates, pay rates or profit margins havnt moved much either. The average plumber is slowly but surely being shut out of their own industry, their own livelihood and chance to work hard to make their dreams come true.
TS, Would you agree it would be fair to say the industry is becoming more expensive to be involved with every year, yet we seldom see any positive growth in what we take home to our families. Isnt that at the end of the day what spending half your life working is all about? Working hard and being duly rewarded. Now all it is is working even harder and giving more and more away to organisations and boards for every new reason they dream up.
My point is only this,In 2022 it may not even be worth going to work as a plumber, gasfitter, drainlayer and paying all necessary expenses to be able to operate,it may well have become that expensive.
It may well be more realistic in the future to take a slightly lower paid job in a different industry that doesnt require a license to operate/work, or a competence based licensing system that tells you, you are now competent once you have paid them all their extra money if at the end of the day the persons only goal is to build a life and comfortable future for themselves and their family.
This could be a future reality for the 99% of practitioners that dont have a council, or have ratepayers to take care of their costs.To some it just wont be worth the hassle, and of course new comers to this will not want to get involved if they are made aware of the endless costs involved in becoming qualified before they get underway. This is the one of the many real industry issues we today, face.
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hi guys,"Whats your advice on the issues industry face TS?"quote from rozda1.
Let me guess: I`m alright Jack pull up the ladder, Get over it`cheers
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apart from ongoing and increasing costs to keep our licences , we have a market that sells all products to anyone in some cases less than we would pay , we have exempt and licenced only peole running their own businesses
TS is correct when he mentions all plumbing and for that matter building work has to carried out by a licenced practitioner , unfortunately there is no controls now in place for work that does not require a building consent to be checked , so we have bathroom and kitchen companies carte blanch doing what they like , and unlicened people have a feild day
It is an offence to knowingly employ a non licenced person to carry out building, plumbing, gasfitting or electrical works. I point this out as the public demand their rights when things go wrong , but do they ensure as a property owner they have played their part in only engaging licenced tradespeople , ignorance I believe is no excuse in law .
what procedures are in place too ensure the public are protected from non licenced people operating illegally? and what procedures are in place to make sure property owners only engage licenced LBPs
secondly what procedures are in place to protect subsequent property owners from problems if they occur after properties are sold . I bet a dog turd to a oz of gold any insurance companies will run a mile if a problem occurs due to an unlicenced person . ( I know insurance investigators want to know who carried out the works so they can counter claim against them , if they are not licensed the companies have no obligation to pay out )
Taking the above into account , it is not a level playing field for those who play the game and incurr all the costs to maintain there licences , and have public liability cover .
My suggestion and I have discussed this at association meetings , with council inspectors ,and insurance investigators , at one meeting there was BIA people in attendance , they dismissed my suggestion as they thought it was asking too much from the public , my response to them was , the public demand all the protection under the law , but what do they do to help themselves by only engaging LBPs.
To bring back a level playing field , I believe all work that does not require a consent , should be notified by email to the local authority by the homeowner or their agent.
The BIA could put together a standard form that all authorities have on their website that can be accessed at anytime , it would include a brief description of the works and the certifier resonsible for the people engaged to carry the work out , including their licence # and their email address.
In turn the authority acknowledges back to the building owner and the licenced people and includes the form or forms in the building documents, and records held by the authorities, this is so all parties have the protection that their name has not been wrongly used without their knowledge , and subsequent owners know who to contact should something go wrong, it will I believe make it harder for unlicenced people to operate a win win for everybody, and put responsibilty back to property owners to ensure they also play the game
Obviously the authority will need to charge for this , hopefully a minimal charge, most property owners I have discussed this would be quite willing to pay a small fee for the peace of mind .
Regarding insurance , who would the insurance company approach should a claim occur , the supervisor or the licensed person , I ask this as a lot of licenced only people run their own businesses, I also know exempt persons as well running their own businesses , Presumably the companies know they are working under supervision and would have a different criteria regarding the policy , or does the certifier carry a policy for the licenced person, This is something I would make clear before I agreed to supervise anyone , I wonder why the PGDB dont have a policy on this as they claim to be their to protect the public
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Your dead right about the work being done now without a consent. I get endless homeowners coming to me when they sell their house and the new purchaser wants to know that things are legit. We have a form where people can notify us of the works they've done and it goes on the file for their address. There's a small fee associated with it if they want it on our records. We require names of all the people involved, a producer statement and a new floor plan of the house to keep an accurate record of the dwelling.
What we've found is that half the declarations we receive end up showing work done beyond what is allowed under Schedule 1 and so then they're up for a "Certificate of Acceptance".
I've seen two insurance claims turned down because there was no consent and they couldn't track down the plumber for the works even though they didn't need a consent. A lot of insurance companies have it in their policies and require owners to notify whenever they're undertaking alterations. Not many do that.
With regard to who is responsible if a licensed person does something wrong mostly it will be on the supervisor so thats why know one does stuff on my ticket without me working directly with them.
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it does not surprise me that more work than is permitted under schedule 1 is being carried out , that is another reason to have a system where all building work is notified , obviously general maintenance and replacement would be excluded , the labour party in their effort to save their arse at the election went too far in allowing schedule1 to be implemented they way it has been .
TS the authorities need to make any system user friendly to encourage people to do do things correctly , we are all in this and will or could be buying properties which we hope won,t have unpleasant surprises after we have purchased them.Possibly the Authorities could do random audits to monitor the system.
Property owners want all the rights so let them have some responsibilities as well.
I also will not allow anyone to work under my licence unless they work for me , I have worked too hard to obtain and keep my licences to let someone else put it at risk . I do see others adopting this attitude more and more .
The interesting thing is , I wonder how many property owners actually know who is responsible for the work being done on their property and who will be in court , should something go wrong .
If we take the real estate situation , although you may be dealing with an agent who has a licence to sell real estate , it is clear to their client who is ultimately responsible should something go wrong ie Harcourts , Leaders, Tommys etc . We have id on our cards , but in 39 yrs I havent been asked once for my licence from a client , The only people who have asked is the council inspectors and they have known me for years , I usually tell them to check the PGDB website .
Seeing as I am feeling like have a speel , another thing that irritates me and is in my opinion very wrong is the so called council officers who have about as much plumbing and drainage knowledge as I have about neurology inspecting my work , Is this fair to a property owner who has paid substantial fees for inspections ? personally I dont think so .
Thats enough for now ,
TS I also value your opinions and insight we may not agree at times but thats what called democracy .
cheers
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Interesting to read the different views on this issue, personally unless the federation and it's members had some serious money to take on the board through the courts i can't see any other way forward than some form of protest.
There's no way way we continue the way we're going with increasing costs but no increase in salary for your average worker and a board who lets be honest will never change whilst the dollars are coming in to support them.
I often get asked whether my son is going to follow his dad in being a plumber/gasfitter like i did with my dad and the straight answer is no way in this country. There is not enough money in the industry for the amount of knowledge and responsibility we are expected to have.
The company i work for hasn't started a new apprentice in over four years and we now have none working with us, this trend will cause some serious problems in the future but i suppose whilst the board and it's lawyers are getting there paychecks who cares?
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hi guys, dead right Foggy the trades are not what they used to be,with all the training/skills required and gained over many years the renumeration is just not there. I activly advise against entering into one of our trades as do many others, a steady job in a computer based career would be less stresfull and more rewarding,cheers
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I have begged my two boys to do something else.....10 years ago nothing would have made me prouder than to add "& sons" to my company banner....
If you look at those that control and oversee OUR industry and cause most of the problems (actually ruining it).....they have their very own plumbing,gasfitting,drainlaying, training, investigating companies. They actually make good money out of putting the opposition of their plumbing firms out of business or providing the keys to being able to work.
The more quality plumbers that leave NZ and /or shut down their firms, the more work these people get and become ever more powerful, it is blatant.
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My son completed his plumbing gasfitting and drainage apprenticeship with me , he became certified in all three trades , it wasnt easy for him but he studied hard and I might add posted on this site for information when he was not sure what I was telling him , It never has been easy to get fully qualified,so I take my hat off to him , He is now in Australia in the mining industry earning way more than I could ever pay him , a shame but I completly understand why , this industry is slowly but surely
becoming a farce , I have enjoyed my time in it and it has been rewarding to me , I would not encourage anyone to enter this industry today unless a whole lot of things change , to be honest I dont see that happening .
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it is so sad peasea, that you can't work along side your lad, and his only alternative is to work away. We live in the best place in the world.....but is is run by some of the worst.....sad and very frustrating.
We as a country have all what OZ has .....and then some, why haven't we got our own boom time?
A total lack of vision, driven by self serving, fill your pockets with money today - f**** tomorrow leaders. It is crazy that a small few make it so hard for the majority and stifle growth and opportunity. We got it all here in NZ - resources, capable people (given a chance who are very willing) and then for an example you have those Dick's in CHCH who were gravely underinsured and letting people live in ruins.....and they give themselves a bonus of thousands of dollars, it is perverse and down right twisted. Those poor people living in 3rd world conditions....paid all their rates and insurance, for what?
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Badger, why do you keep logging on and smiting me? I've been watching for the last week or so while you've done this. Administrators, please cancel my membership to this site, I give up and won't be posting here ever again.
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you have to ask? read over your posts
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I smited because I didn't agree with what you said( I thought that was the point and I am not responsible for all your smites.... that would be down to you, because of what you said) and again TS you have hijacked a topic and talked twaddle....
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Ts you are proablies a very nice chap in life but here you come across as a stuck up twat (no offence intended im just saying it straight) with your mighter that thou posts you come across as if you think your of a higher class that us(well thats the feeling i get off your posts)...And to put it honstley you might spout this instant fine stuff but you well know that a whole shit load of work is done with out consent and will NEVER be picked up by council and i know this gets to you because its a failure on your council that the breaurracy and frivilous expenditure of your council is 100% the reason we have this problem right now have you sat back and looked at the cost's involved today to even take a piss in your back lawn???...its toatly out of controll what council wastes money on nowdays ESP when the fricken world growth has basicily halted but yet the council is spending more than ever because they think we the people are cash cows and they carry NO responsibility for there expenditure.
Life is not black and white TS there is a heck of a lot of grey in there so what may be written is most definitley open to alot of interpitation.
And as a last say TS if you came up with some sensible common secnse posts then you would be recieved alot better...i mean you never explain your self you just post stupid little irritating posts desinged to roadblock peoples thoughts...im sure this works well when your out doing your inspecting jobs in a situation where people are to scared to talk back to you because you hold all the power to whether there expensive job goes forward or halts...All i have ever been told is dont argue with an inspector because he will fail you and this is very true(isnt it TS?!) but here we have a free voice without fear of being failed and i can see you dont like it.
Anyway TS these are only my personal views and as you dont know me then you shpouldnt rearly care...should you?.
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Thunderhead, I agree 100% with your comments. Well said mate. Ive been thinking exactly what you just posted.....definitely a 'average NZ plumber' vs TS-Mighty Council Inspector mentality, attitude going on here. Read the posts its easy to see he thinks he is above everyone on this forum and our thoughts dont count for anything because he is an ''inspector'' and we are mere plumbers who he corrects on a daily basis. Since he posts during work hours he must think we are part of his inspections and so we must be inspected and corrected from our silly PGDF ways... Well TS, inspect this text, please I beg you...s*it...fail me even and PM me a remedial list...I couldnt care less.
Get an instant fine you say TS??? Who gives a S**T....really. Your talking to everyday plumbers,gasfitters and drainlayers on this free to post forum who work hard everyday yet you tell us we dont know whats up and only your opinion counts as if we are on one of your god damm inspections....You dont even pay your own fees and costs. Goes to show you only care about yourself as long as all the PGDB BS is not directly hitting you, you dont care.....your not a real plumber
Delete your own profile....its not that hard...geez. Do you need some upskilling for that?? As an inspector im surprised you cant do that for yourself!! Your suppose to be smarter than everyone remember buddy???
You've got no intention of agreeing with anything any plumber has to say on this forum, especially federation members.
Newsflash TS, I dont know a single plumber that is in love with the board...not one.
Have you stopped to think for just one second perhaps plumbers,gasfitters and drainlayers NZ wide are smiting you because your the biggest a-hole on this forum and you've just rubbed a lot of plumbers up the wrong way with your high ground talk, and your threats of instant fines???
Without us, you would be out of a job as an inspector buddy and back on the tools, paying fees and struggling to survive like everyone else. Why do you have to be such a d**k?? So now its a conspiracy against you started by Badger?? Are you on medication of any type we need to know about??? Seriously TS.....
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What a bunch of knob ends! I pay my own license and take care of my required cpd. I don't think I'm any better than you and never have claimed to be. Just because someone disagrees with you or takes another approach you get your hackles up.
As to being a powerful inspector here's some advice. Do the job right and you'll never ever get failed. An inspector can't fail you if it complies with the Building Code. As to the illegal work by all means blame it on Councils for not identifying it but believe me we're busy enough without looking for it. It comes out eventually, lets hope you guys experience that sooner rather than later, I'll be real sympathetic, not.
Now, I haven't found how to delete myself so pretty please with sugar on top someone please post how I can do that. The sooner you do the sooner you'll be rid of me and will be able to concentrate on keyboard warfare.
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Whoops...looks like I just failed my 8am monday morning forum inspection from TS....damm :'( :'( :'(
Better get out the infringement book then TS... :o. Im a naughty plumber, gasfitter and a drainlayer with no licenses...but my kids need to eat so screw you.
NZ has rejected you, get use to it..............
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No, a small minority of disgruntled plumbers who have no backing have is all that I've upset. Theres literally only three or four of you who are active on here and believe me your out of touch. I have plenty of technical expertise I could've offered here but instead of being the information resource this site could be its turned into a b**** fest. Sad really.
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You've belittled and opposed everything the PGDF is fighting for, you've made numerous statements that has made it alarmingly clear you dont support industry change like we do on a forum where plumbers come together to discuss the same issues most notably the PGDB. I could rattle on about stats that prove the damage being done to this industry for hours but people like you just dont give a f*ck.
Guess that means your up against 1000 plumbers that back every direction the federation wishes to take. TS, I think you require upskilling to practice how to count. Little more than 3-4 Mr Inspector. Better place an order to get some more infringement notice books asap????...Sounds like your going to be a busy boy what with all the pending un-licensed chaps driving around in the next 12months. S**t I could name 6 guys right now in my own city to get you started my little PGDB mole. :o :o :o
I'll tell you a little secret, you seem like you are lacking in the social skills department so I'll take you through a little upskilling online course. I''ll even grant you 4points for completing my module...If you wish to inspect my CPD course your welcome to bust out an inspection sheet and evaluate once we have completed the short course that follows :D
Online forum-Social Skills Course (4 online forum points available)
1. When you jump on a forum, alert everyone to your ''status'' as an inspector (what, are we suppose to be scared of that title??) and begin to slam people that have been living and breathing industry change for 4+ years your going to get some opposition. This is not an inspection, people do and say what they feel. It is there avenue for venting.
2. Right now your sitting at your council HQ fluffing around at 10:00am on the computer reading this thinking about how to reply to this as you find me so out of order and out of touch. Realise that there is a way to conduct yourself on here, people do value opinion and tradesmen from different sectors of the industry. I value your opinion as an Inspector TS.The problem is as an inspector you out right ''hammer'' people on this forum and have over stepped the mark on how often you have disregarded what others have to say by mocking ideas we are discussing. Everybody enjoys some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism now and then but when all they hear is criticism people start to get wound up. Tradesman are struggling out there. Work is down, fees are climbing, we are being regulated out of some of our own work,the cost of living is climbing. Cant increase margins or rates, cant get aide through legal channels, apprentices and new blood are being driven away by $10k plus costs for an apprenticeship,training quality is at an all time low.... What to do is the big debate. Let us post and communicate, without being OVERLY criticised.
3. Pay close attention to what you are typing....people read and take in every single word. Making yourself sound like your ABOVE everyone else by referring to ...us and you (read your posts if your confused) makes you look like a tool to everyone who reads even if dont mean to sound that way. People take things literally as you word it so choose words carefully.
3. This is 2012, not 1983. People are likely to get pissed off if you push them around, regardless of if its in a forum or in real life. Your the first person I've come across that is die-hard pro-PGDB. Being a die-hard PGDB supporter will never get you anywhere with anyone here. If thats your attitude which it looks like it is , you probably should leave us ''To our keyboard warrior battles'' as you call it. You will find that we all are pro licensing, pro CPD in some form, pro regulation to protect trades. Its the way its being done that is screwing everyone except people at the top. People are now wondering if your a Board member perhaps! Your definitely shown yourself to be a board sympathiser at a minimum in my opinion.
4. Being it is the 21st century, the century of the computer no one likes a troll. The first troll I encountered was way back in 2001.Trolls are funny weird anti-social creatures that are closet humans and very negative. That is what you have become... a troll. You are trolling right now on this forum looking for someone else to run down.....its all you do. Trolls live in every forum. They take pleasure in arguing with everyone over everything as they have a need to dominate others. To most, Trolls seem insane really......
5. Calm the f**k down, its just a forum of your peers. Do you see me getting out of control and making threats. No you do not.
There you have it, you have sucessfully completed Rodza1's online forum etiquette course.
You have just been awarded 4 technical forum points. Well Done.
Now go forth with your new upskilling knowledge forum points and stop slamming the s**t out of everyone that posts.
And remember, this is not an inspection-its a public plumbing forum. 8)
Stay Cool TS ???
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What a bunch of knob ends! I pay my own license and take care of my required cpd. I don't think I'm any better than you and never have claimed to be. Just because someone disagrees with you or takes another approach you get your hackles up.
As to being a powerful inspector here's some advice. Do the job right and you'll never ever get failed. An inspector can't fail you if it complies with the Building Code. As to the illegal work by all means blame it on Councils for not identifying it but believe me we're busy enough without looking for it. It comes out eventually, lets hope you guys experience that sooner rather than later, I'll be real sympathetic, not.
TS i did not get my hackles up at what you posted ...BUT in the manner with which you posted this information....your information is correct and true but ease off on the hammer and gravel attitude with which you post...thats my only issue.
And you well know that NO JOB is EVER 100% to EXACT code requirments eg clip spacing on plastic pipes holes not being exactly in centre of stud(yes i have been picked on this before by a tosser inspector just trying to play god!...he then told me to place a piece of sheet metal over the edge of the stud so the gibbies wouldnt screw throough my pipe!!!????But the most critical part of the gibbies job is to mark pipes behind walls so they dont screw through pipes and the likes!!!!,...But over the last two years we keep getting the comment that our work is some of the best around as all inspectors fail to pick any holes in our work...
And TS could you please tell me how a check valve is required on a shower with a standard base and liner...The explaniation i was given by one inspector was: EG: a lady is in the shower having a shower the phone goes she has the shower rose in her hand she then drops the shower rose to the floor/tray WITH THE SHOWER STILL RUNNING!!!(you drop the rose with the shower going and water goes everwhere! some how a fricken spacecraft turns up and drops a cloth over the easy clean waste(has to be a big cloth with the size of todays easy clean wastes!)...It then blocks WITH THE SHOWER STILL RUNNING!!! and the tray fills with water AT THE SAME TIME a fire truck turns up down the road to fight a fire hooks up to the main and sucks all the pressure out of the main creating a back siphonage situation thus sucking water from the shower tray back into the mainsLOLOLOLOLLOLOL...i just looked at the inspector with a you have got to be frickin kidding me...you would have more chance of winning lotto that this happening!...Firstly the woman would turn the shower off secondly she would place the shower head back as it is eaiser to lift up that to bend down and third the trays are to shallow to completley cover the shower rose head so there is a natural air break there anyways and no back syphonage will occur even if these 3 previous far out circumstances do occur...go and try it for your self i have had a look at many diffrent trays and shower heads and can see this aint going to happen...the council idiots are just comming up with stuff to justify there jobs!!!
but as im one of those knob end plumbers TS obvisouley with out a clue i must adheer to what inspectors demand!...to this day i bring this up with any and every inspector because this is just a drop kick idea...i dont know if any other councils do it but it is in auckland.
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I totally agree TS, there may only be a few vocal on this web site but if you look at how many reads these posts gets ....then it is at least getting out there and informing people, and judging by the amount of PGDF stickers on vans I see, much more than we are being given credit for.
Unless guys..... as well as just me smiting TS, I also read and re-read my own posts over and over again. LMFAO. ;)
None so blind as those who won't see.
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No, a small minority of disgruntled plumbers who have no backing have is all that I've upset. Theres literally only three or four of you who are active on here and believe me your out of touch.
And this is where you fall flat on your face TS when you say only 3-4 active people here is incorrect more like 5-6 :P any how active numbers on this site donot represent any where near the true amount of disgruntled tradesman out there and if you think it does TS than your more of a fool than i could have ever thought....Just for example this started from a few fed up tradies and now represents near a thousand and as an example look to mahatma gandhi he was just one,1,ONE disgruntled person TS sick of british rule and he moved an empire and i hope that the federation will move the empire now ruling over us!...I fear you will toatly miss my point TS as you seem to be stuck in your no free thought rules and regs box of a world as most council workers i know my brother in law works for the council so i hear some of the inner workings and it is very bland TS very bland indeed.
Im glad weve managed to get to you TS as now we see the real TS posting here which is refreshing now we can have a real robust discousion. ;)
"I have plenty of technical expertise I could've offered here"...i know your a bit of a technical powerhouse TS but that in no way near makes you a better tradesman...I preffer people with wisdom as its all fine and dandy having lots knowledge but wisdom is knowledge lived! so wisdom is what i seek TS as i can gain knowledge from any book or supplier any time which is what i regulary do.
but my main question i have been trying to get you to answer is WHAT DO YOU IN ALL YOUR WISDOM SEE HAPPENING IF WE ALL REFUSED TO PAY OUR FEES ALL 1000 OF US? do you see people taking notice or do you see all of us being struck off the books with the trades shoratge we already have this is a serrious question to you TS the ball is in your court.
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Thunder - I have one question - why would the woman in the shower:
a) Turn the shower off if the phone rang
b) Bother to interupt her shower to answer a phone
No woman I know does that... just saying....
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Just a thought - How many inspectors in small towns are guiltyof allowing guys without licenses to operate becasue they've known them for years?
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Thunder - I have one question - why would the woman in the shower:
a) Turn the shower off if the phone rang
b) Bother to interupt her shower to answer a phone
No woman I know does that... just saying....
This is the example the inspector gave me for the reason auckland council require non return valves to be fitted to ALL showers....Like the codes say you must first identify the cross potential hazzard then you can rate the hazard...so in the fairy land of the council they came up with this one! to justify what there demanding!
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Wombles, totally, it is all about who you know, not what you know.....seen it heaps.
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hi guys, totally agree with all. Inspectors do have to cover their arses in case lotto odds do come up and cross connection does happen but why not just put chrome elbow higher so rose does not reach tray, thats what i and many others do now,cheers
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yea robbo i see alot of the elbows up high nowdays but what if they go out and get a extra long hose...same problem...
plus i reckon the elbow up that high dont look as good as elbow same height as mixer, and as a last note putting the elbow up high means the user looses the flexiability of having a fleiable hose you may as well have a fixed head...just in my opinion but it is a valid way to negate this issue.
And if the council was so worried about this cross connection of the public main line then just put a doubble check valve at the gate which they require on new builds that have pools anyway...this would solve ALL and ANY issues with any wierd possible cross connection and to me is the most logical way to ensure the public supply is protected...putting check valves on showers is a drop kick idea i believe! as i would say 90% of showers pose no cross connection issues at all as well these devices are non testable so as soon as any grit lodges in the check valve ...same problem.
I have always thought since i was an apprentise that they should place testable doubble check valves at the gate to each property it is the logical way to 100% protect the public supply...and give us more work :P
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Just wondering what form this planned industrial action will take, strike action? i agree something has to be done and i will support the P.G.D.F 100%
Its unfortunate that it has to come to this sort of thing but what else can be done......
My view is the whole country needs to grow a backbone and stand up or run the risk of being sold out. currently well on track more than you think.
As Mike moore said '' New Zealanders will become a nation of waiters in their own country''
Perhaps we could learn to play baseball and get a few cpd points for that...........
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hi guys,
The Board will soon host a series of public meetings around NZ Another junket at our expence, if there was a demonstration at each venue instead of going in to listen to more spin maybe the message wold get through,cheers