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MY DETAILS AS OF TODAY, WHEN I SEE THE BOARDS PERSONAL DETAILS DISPLAYED THEN I WILL RECONSIDER
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Suburb or RD No. Suburb or RD No. Mobile* (Private) Employer
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Town or City* Town or City Email (Public) (Warning: Does not affect sign-in name) Employer Phone
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Post Code Post Code Preferred Contact Number* (Public)
!! f**** OFF
Country* Country Date of Birth (Private)
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No Longer Current Same as private address details
Please read
Privacy Act 1993: the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006 requires the Board to maintain a register of plumbers, gasfitters and drainlayers. Your public address, preferred contact number, and email address (if any) are visible on the online public register if you are registered and hold a current licence, or hold a current provisional licence.
Please note that only your public address is on the online public register. If you have a business address, it must be supplied. If you do not, you can choose whether to provide a residential address but this is not required. If you do not have a business address and do not wish to provide your residential address, please tick the appropriate box above. You must provide a telephone number for the online public register. This number is your 'preferred contact number'. You must also provide an email address, if you have one.
Your private address, phone number, mobile number and date of birth are not on the online public register. This information is collected by the Board in accordance with the purposes of the register, to facilitate the administrative, disciplinary, and other functions of the Board, any investigator and the Registrar.
BUNCH OF CUNTS
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AS A PEACEFUL PROTEST I HAVE REPLACED ALL MY DETAILS ON THE BOARDS REGISTER AS "f**** OFF", IF THE DICKHEADS ARE IN ANY DOUBT ABOUT MY FEELINGS TOWARD THEIR CORRUPTION, NEPOTISM, INEPTNESS, STUPIDITY, ILLEGAL ACTIVITY......PLEASE REFER TO MY DETAILS....AND f**** OFF.
PLEASE TAKE ME TO COURT AND I WILL BACK ALL THAT I SAY...I KNOW YOU WANKERS MONITOR THIS SITE
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To whom it may concern,
I have had enough of the Boards bully tactics and have tried to deal with this in a professional way, loosing my home, business, reputation and time with my young family. I am making a public protest about your very dodgy dealings and witch hunt mentality, sadly I have had to resort to swear words to get some response, I publically accuse the Board of nepotism and corruption I will take a lack of response as an admission of guilt.
The Board are corrupt and act against the industry and the New Zealand public, you ignore very dangerous work and pursue innocent people for minor offences, and choose who to ruin on a who knows who mentality and not on fact or even safety basis.
I await your reply, please see below my public protest on the NZ plumber’s forum, I will post this email on the same stream, it is in public and I would expect a public reply.
I am in Wellington and can pop in to discuss any time that is convenient to the Board
You are corrupt.
Yours sincerely
Paul Gee
Sent to the PGDB today and I would like to add publically that the Board has knowingly covered up dodgy certs at an exploding chip shop.
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Sorry guys I am that wild that I have put this on the apprentice part of the site, see below and share
MY DETAILS AS OF TODAY, WHEN I SEE THE BOARDS PERSONAL DETAILS DISPLAYED THEN I WILL RECONSIDER
!
Suburb or RD No. Suburb or RD No. Mobile* (Private) Employer
!!
Town or City* Town or City Email (Public) (Warning: Does not affect sign-in name) Employer Phone
!
!
Post Code Post Code Preferred Contact Number* (Public)
!! f**** OFF
Country* Country Date of Birth (Private)
!
!
!
No Longer Current Same as private address details
Please read
Privacy Act 1993: the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006 requires the Board to maintain a register of plumbers, gasfitters and drainlayers. Your public address, preferred contact number, and email address (if any) are visible on the online public register if you are registered and hold a current licence, or hold a current provisional licence.
Please note that only your public address is on the online public register. If you have a business address, it must be supplied. If you do not, you can choose whether to provide a residential address but this is not required. If you do not have a business address and do not wish to provide your residential address, please tick the appropriate box above. You must provide a telephone number for the online public register. This number is your 'preferred contact number'. You must also provide an email address, if you have one.
Your private address, phone number, mobile number and date of birth are not on the online public register. This information is collected by the Board in accordance with the purposes of the register, to facilitate the administrative, disciplinary, and other functions of the Board, any investigator and the Registrar.
BUNCH OF CUNTS
PGDB f**** OFF
AS A PEACEFUL PROTEST I HAVE REPLACED ALL MY DETAILS ON THE BOARDS REGISTER AS "f**** OFF", IF THE DICKHEADS ARE IN ANY DOUBT ABOUT MY FEELINGS TOWARD THEIR CORRUPTION, NEPOTISM, INEPTNESS, STUPIDITY, ILLEGAL ACTIVITY......PLEASE REFER TO MY DETAILS....AND f**** OFF.
PLEASE TAKE ME TO COURT AND I WILL BACK ALL THAT I SAY...I KNOW YOU WANKERS MONITOR THIS SITE
PGDB f**** OFF
To whom it may concern,
I have had enough of the Boards bully tactics and have tried to deal with this in a professional way, loosing my home, business, reputation and time with my young family. I am making a public protest about your very dodgy dealings and witch hunt mentality, sadly I have had to resort to swear words to get some response, I publically accuse the Board of nepotism and corruption I will take a lack of response as an admission of guilt.
The Board are corrupt and act against the industry and the New Zealand public, you ignore very dangerous work and pursue innocent people for minor offences, and choose who to ruin on a who knows who mentality and not on fact or even safety basis.
I await your reply, please see below my public protest on the NZ plumber’s forum, I will post this email on the same stream, it is in public and I would expect a public reply.
I am in Wellington and can pop in to discuss any time that is convenient to the Board
You are corrupt.
Yours sincerely
Paul Gee
Sent to the PGDB today and I would like to add publically that the Board has knowingly covered up dodgy certs at an exploding chip shop.
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sent today.... to all at the Board....please call me on it all
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You got to love these people...my first responce .....
[color=pinkI am currently on holiday in North America and will not be accessing my emails on a regular basis.I will be returning to work on 30th August 2012. If you need to contact me urgently please leave a message on my cell phone **Removed by Admin**. If the matter is not urgent I would prefer that you waited until my return.
Alan Bickers[/color][/color]
very nice for you Allan, I am living in a f****in caravan missing my young family...oh and you still haven't told me what I have done wrong....give him a ring and tell him what a sterling job he is doing.....a whole month on holiday, you leach
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just aired my concerns on his answer machine, please do the same....he holidays(who here can afford a whole month in America????????) while we struggle......perhaps if we have no bread we should eat cake, as I said a right bunch of cunts, leaches at that.
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I am going to have a little protest on the steps of their mirrored skyscraper one saturday, handing out a little synopsis of their actions toward myself, with a copy of the past case notes that they felt were appropriote to send to my long suffering wife.....if anyone has a spare few hours on a saturday morning please let me know...I'll do it anyway, but be nice to meet some like minded people ;)
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Well said.
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hi guys, yes sex and travel would do them good,cheers
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If you need to contact me urgently... yes we do can you please stay there and not bother us again,cheers
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I'm with you,
Just been in and made some "changes" to my details too.
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They are robbing us of our trade, livelyhood and ability to provide. Setting up licenses that we "need" to make us "competent" even though we have been doing it very well for decades with out a licence, selling us the licence and training.... to be right back where we started, but with our wallet a bit lighter......and theirs a lot fuller.
The CEO Allan Bickers can afford 6 weeks holiday in America....we struggle to pay to do a trade that as far as I am concerned we are already qualified to do.......when did an apprenticeship loose all its respect and worth, it wasn't lost it was taken. Lining their pockets with our funds and belittling our industry, most of them not even tradesman, but the worst offenders ARE the "fellow" tradesman....bloody turn coats.
Thank you guys for your support, be nice if we all could do it....I understand most of us are weary because we know these people will start a witchhunt and mark you down for special treatment.....well I would rather die on my feet than suck up to these twats on my knees.
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Robbo ???
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hi guys, "If you need to contact me urgently... " was a quote from Mr.Bickers note while he was away..
"yes we do can you please stay there and not bother us again", was my reply to that note, just incase anyone missread the meaning,cheers
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Badger - while I wouldn't belittle what you and your family have been through - I don't think this is entirely going to help. The PGDB Chair has a job to do, and I think that it is the "Chair" that you are wanting to have a got at, as opposed to the person themselves. I don't think personal attacks are going to help - by all means vent at the position and the decision that they made that have cost you so dearly. Protest too - I think that the letter you have sent them would have been so much more powerful if you had made a statement such as the nepotism and then cited the examples to back it up. Those who read this forum but are not acquainted with the details of the case will not understand what you are saying.
Why not write again, but take your time and add in the examples that back it up - this will give people a lot more background as to why you are so very angry. Your case has spotlighted a lot of weaknesses in the process/investigation area and someone may not have done their job correctly - but the only way to fully portray this is to give details and examples - if you are going to give hand outs then I suggest you do this - but always ensure you are factually correct. Always back yourself - sometimes the road is long and it can take a while to get there.
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Jax it has been over three years of playing fair and using words like alledgedly and appears to be, I have played by their rules.... on their pitch..... with their ref......and guess what happened.
That rant was just after my wife was crying on the phone because they had to leave after they came and lived in the caravan for the kids school holidays, It was our first weekend apart after two weeks together.....my eldest lad said to me "I hate it when your not there, its like I havn't got a Dad" just before he got on the ferry and left to go back and live in a house I wouldn't be comfortable renting out. AND THAT CUNT BICKERS GOES ON A SIX WEEK HOLIDAY, sorry Jax he should be wearing that f****in chair.
I am beyond caring about what people think, but I know you mean well and you are right how the right way is to present your self, but I am only human, I have a huge fuse but it leads to an even bigger charge. I have put up with more than most could bare, not because I am anythng special but because my family mean so much to me, if I was single I would be arrested for something that people would regret (me included)
I have missed so much of my boys grownin up....what price do you put on that. A bit more than six weeks in the states....how many on this forum could afford six weeks off work....at home .....let alone f****in America, he is a twat.
ps Robbo I knew what you meant mate, I just hit the question mark button because their actions puzzle me, all good buddy.
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Jax... you think well of those that do not deserve it, Bickers is a member of IPENZ an institute for engineers, so is Hammond the inquisitor at my case. The chair of my "hearing" Stephen Parker GANZ and other gas groups, best mates with AND member of the same gas groups, several actually ....you guessed it Hammond and guess who gave Darnley( my old boss and member of the same groups) his license after one oral exam....drum rollllll....Hammond.
So , and there are many, many more links, you have the now chair of the Board, Bickers... the chair of my hearing, Parker, and the foul turd Hammond (who the Board has received numerous complaints about) all members of the same industry groups .....on an industry Board.
Our own law commission states that there should be no industry groups on an industry board because of "perceived" impartiality conflicts ......but our Minister Maurice Williamson has no problem with it at all (I have a letter from him stating it), guess who appointed them all, and at the meeting in Napier said all sorts of nice things about Bickers, like they were old mates.....the same MP.
Our industry is run by people who treat it like a Gentleman's club, sadly we are lacking gentlemen..............
I got heaps....so lets have it you pack of cunts.....
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Badger, these are the sotr of things that definitely need to come out in the open. I have followed your case very closely and read the transcripts of the hearing. Gasfitters need to understand that any one of them could have been in your shoes. From 44 charges - they could only get 2 to stick - and I know there is the question of applying the British Standards to that particular one which would/could have made it irrelevant. Shining a bright light into the corner of darkness is necessary - and that is why I say the facts are so important. The devastation to your family is immense, and every practitioner could find themselves in a similar position, so again I say we need to understand the relationships, the cross overs, the things you have been through. While it is too late to turn the clock back for you, others can be wary and understand how to react when first approached by the PGDB. In my own mind I have no doubt that the investigation into your work was not carried out in a professional and thorough manner. There appears to be holes big enough to drive a bus through. The sending of letters "in error" to many of your customers is unforgivable and then the way this was dismissed when bought to the attention of the Board was disgusting. I think that the investigative processes used by the PGDB and their subcontractors needs a huge overhaul. I also think that serious questions have been raised about the relationships between the parties involved in your disciplinary action. However, it is a small industry and you don't need to go far to see the same faces on the same committees and boards. Sadly only a few people put themselves forward for these positions and so there will be cross overs. I am not a fan of cross seeding on boards myself as I believe it results in conflicts that cannot be managed easily and situations that you have described well. I do believe in playing the man and not the ball though - and sometimes we have to do pretty shitty things in our job, things we may not personally agree with, but given a position it has to be done. I'm not saying this is the case in this situation, and I'm not saying it's not - but denigrating individuals won't help the bigger picture. The truth will always out. On a personal note I cannot imagine how hard it is to say goodbye to your children while you work to keep them fed and clothed. I hope that very soon you can get work closer to home and be united with your wife and boys. At least I hope you had a great two weeks with them to carry you through the next little while.
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Freudian slip there - I meant I do believe in playing the ball not the man!! Apologies.
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I have applied for the Board this year, I know I can bring balance and give a perspective from this side of the fence, but this is where it is the system that fails....."they" chose who is to go on the Board and then go pick them from the same places/organisations. I don't believe the "small willing few" is a reality........it is more like the "small choosing few".......you want to see the now and future.....look at the past.
The New Zealand Law Commission states that Industry Boards should be free of industry groups, that is free, not 2% representation allowed, it says free of......industry groups are not just present, but are the majority both now and in the past.......and I'll bet the future too. Should we ignore the law if it suits us....lots of people doing bird with the same idea, but they aren't connected, it is just wrong. It is like saying I drunk and drove because there was no taxi available....it is still wrong, but I suppose these dicks are drunk on power and their perceptions are clouded.
The chair has the power to guide and make decisions......or carry on down the same preordained path. There is choice and if you have a spine and a bit of moral fibre, you are more than able to change the whole direction.....but you have to want to, there is choice. These people have had many many opportunities to choose doing the right thing, they are more than aware of the effect that this has had on me and my family, you wait and see the latest response I get and you choose.
When I played rugby and someone fouled me you better believe I played the man not the ball...moral of the story don't be a shit and play dirty and foul someone or he might get back up dust him self down and take your head clean off, especially if he thinks the retribution is worth ten in the sin bin.
Mate I got heaps and I have sent copies all over the world to good mates of mine, just waiting for a proper stage to broadcast from....which I am building just now.
Always a pleasure Jax...but stop being so nice and thinking the best of people like these, it is the curtain that they hide behind....a moral facade which I have seen behind, and they are monsters in every sense of the word.
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bring balance to the Board I will.....see what they have done to me, I sound like f***** Yoda.....hahaha ;)
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No badger you are correct these people deserve no quarter as they have given none then they deserve none in return!..(do unto others as you wish others to do unto you)and badger they tried to drag you through the gutter and they tried to deflam you as a person...as a human!...it is only fair in my eyes that you seek to do the same.
These buggers are just lucky this is not the good old west...because badger i would have joined your possie and we would have us a good old lynching going on right now!
In my eyes not only have they attacked you but they have attacked your family unit with there disgusting method of systamitacly attacking you and grinding you down with there endless wealth, payed by the very people they seek to persecute!.
in what i have read of your posts they are a bunch of backscratching bent over tards...it is clear insider action has gone on from the get go!...and yet not one fool has been pulled out for not being able to make 40odd charges stick!
Clearly they threw the book at you hoping that some of it would stick so they could justify wasting thou...tens of thousands of dollars of trying to prosecute the wrong person because they know that if your ex employee was found out and it was found that he was given craftsmans license on one oral blowjob, oops one oral exam then they would be in the firing line.
My only hope is they get found out for the douchbags they are!
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Cheers Thunder, too true....
I am very far from finished....don't pack away your horse and hat just yet mate ;)
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I met Alan and Max at a recent conference and found them to be good bastards. They aren't out to get you all as some would think on here.
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I speak from experience and they are, I had tried to get the dodgy dealings of my former boss looked in to many many times for 6 years before an explosion, my concerns were that there were dodgy certs signing off dodgy work, all told to the Board in writting. But they fobbed me off. Basically I was complaining to the very people who gave my old boss his ticket....I have the photos to prove it.
Then after an explosion... they went after me, placing the very man who gave my old boss his full craftsman ticket after one oral exam as the investigator, even though I was found innocent of 42 of 44 trumped up charges, and the ONE last charge is backed by a British Standard, Canadian Standard and the fact that table 16 of 5261 contradicts its self ( then the 44th last charge falls over if this one goes because it is for signing it off), they still went public stating I had no idea what I was doing in my local paper...which now won't give me a right of reply.
They accused me of not realising the importance of a gas certificate....unyet they have accepted at least 11 gas certs with the gas leak test column empty, and tried to cover it up, one of these dodgy certs was for the exploding chip shop....they deny ever receiving this dodgy cert but are so inept that they have forgot to note there is an electronic copy on their own bloody web site...and you got the gall to say I don't know how to conduct my self, I have acted in a proper manner for 3 years and lost everything, I wonder how you would fare up in such circumstances, probably by greasing up to people....well that ain't me.
What part of this is OK TS in a democratic free society, you have said I deserve it because I spoke out..... about the public safety, with my concerns borne out by the explosion that I lost my home, business and reputation over, if you read the trials transcript then it actually proves that the concerns I had tried to get the Board to look at were very real,BUT THEY IGNORED IT AND STILL DO TO THIS VERY DAY with very real evidence that was with held and ignored and lying letters sent to my customers(my complaint just recently up held by the complaints Lawyer).....just so happens most if not all involved are members of industry groups....that meet at conferences just like when you TS were sucking up to them.
It is true I don't know when to hold my tongue but I would rather that, than use it to kiss up to people.
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I met Alan and Max at a recent conference and found them to be good bastards. They aren't out to get you all as some would think on here.
well they got you sucked in TS :P....
Look what they say to your face and what they do behind closed doors is two very very diffrent things TS obvisousley they were just telling you what you wanted to hear and you fell for the nice guy act.
My evidence lies in the OAG report where it (from memory) stated that the board was not transperent at all and was operiting off side of the practisoners AND THAT IT NEEDED TO CHANGE! and yet TS to this day it is very very clear that none of there mentality has changed one little bit...we keep seeing new faces of the same old gang, and they still carry the them and us mentality as is blantily clear in there info update gloating about the RRC's decision...and you tell me there not out to get us??????? to me when i logicaly look at all the eidence i can not believe that your words are true...if you could come up with some evidence to contradict what i am thinking then pleses tell all but untill I clearly see a change in mentality from the board members, then i must assume at every step in the road that they are out to get us as an industry, one just has to take badgers case as a prime example they systimaticaly ruined the guy with the wealth that we provided to them!!!and this case should have gone in a toatly diffrent direction!!!...you know that ...i know that...so why did it ever go down the path it did????...because at every turn in the road THERE OUT TO GET US!!!
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I agree. TS you got 5mins of the "Star treatment". The biggest con men out there in the big bad world turn people with a quick motivational speech that wows those who will listen every day in this world. Its nothing new, ive met a few myself who roll out the welcome mat and talk the talk but after all the bullshit and chit chat it is my support or friendship they require at the time as it is my money that they ultimately seek in the end.
These guys seem to be all the same, they are just trying to use current acts and regulations to their financial advantage by forcing amendments to acts and regulations, or by bending the law or abusing their powers to achieve it. They do not care how they get there they will do and say anything and everything to prove that they need more money to regulate the P,G and D industry of NZ, costs must rise bla bla bla. They drive fear into the regular everyday plumber that they are the 'Board' and shall not be challenged whilst they go through the processes to legally achieve what they want which is ultimately to profit at the expense of the industry. They have been pulled up on that one through the OAG and are apparently now more transparent although I cant really see it except to say they are trying to do things through the correct legal channels now as they know there every move is being watched closely. I would hate to see where we would be if no one had ever challenged them and the PGDF didnt exist. Everybody who keeps up with this changing industry cant argue that we would be better off doing nothing because we would most certainly would not.
I am actually some days disgusted with myself for paying the fees that are charged these days when my family and I simply cannot afford it.
My way around it you ask?? We as a family simply go without, but in the end usually I go without. New clothes for myself after my family have what they need is a stretch let alone a trip to North America....I hear your overall point loud and clear Badger.
It doesnt matter what spin they put on it either, whether they need more funding for prosecutions, CPD, operating costs, first time registration or exams. The general idea is they constantly need more money. Does it make me angry that an organisation that does nothing for me gets a big piece of the action whenever I try to better myself and my life and the life of my family by attaining another qualification?? You bet it does. If asked, I actually warn young people away from plumbing apprenticeships these days and into electrical. Not so likely to get financially raped by the PGDB or ITO there. Fees from both groups are officially full blown out of control.
Back in the real world in 2011 after 18months of solid performance as a tradesman I enquired about a pay review,a 50cent an hour pay increase was what I sought to be not only a registered plumber, gasfitter but now a newly licensed drainlayer too in the great land of NZ but it was thrown out by my former employer before I could even secure a meeting even though it cost me thousands to get there so it just goes to show, Who is the big winner at the end of the day??....I nor my family certainly are not, yet we are the ones who put in the money and the time.
The NZ Plumbers, Gasfitters, Drainlayers Board wins again. I paid $2500 to the ITO for the apprenticeship,$300 for the exam,$408 first time rego fee. ALL FOR NO GAIN, not one cent yet the ''Board'' made $708 from me
I honestly feel that if fees are reviewed and go up again in the next 12 months or so that will be it for me. Enough is enough.
I am by nature not a violent person but the lynching mob mentioned in previous posts, I would have to say, F*#k it, Id be happy to join hahaha.
My opinion is that the board is not out to get US, so to speak. They are out to relieve us of our MONEY we earn through any legal means they can. The PGDB is run like a business yet claims perks of being a registered charity also, its a disgrace.In western civilisation societies capitalism rules and each of us is only on this earth for one lifetime....just one. Board members included. If they can live out their one lifetime in luxury and comfort with their families at the expense of others wallowing in muddy ditches and living in shit box uninsulated houses, they will. To me its pretty basic human psychology.
(if anyone in a position of power from the mighty "Board'' is reading this with disgust right now, please understand that a lot of people actually hate you with an upmost intensity that is yet to be fully realised)
This is how things have gone in the past, & I expect the "Board'' to take full advantage of each fee review as an opportunity to up their revenue.
In the next fees review,expect the board to release doctored figures, more pie graphs, more cost projections etc etc showing how they are losing money in certain areas of operation and although they understand the strain people in NZ are under, unfortunately due to the number of prosecutions, the levies and license fees payable to the "Board" must rise to the new amount of $143.00 per license up from $102.00.I mean hell, they boast a 100% prosecution conviction rate, most people take the guilty plea as they know they cant out muscle the board. This saves time and money one would think yet there costs of operation somehow continue to rise??
These guys get things wrong all the time but because of the positions they hold they have the luxury of being able to deny, deny, deny (The classic all time strategy) and stand behind a group of people with the full power of the "Board" to wield. When we get something wrong we can be taken to court as an individual by them and they have the privilege of using any kind of the defamatory, reputation slashing techniques they like well before the defendant is found guilty. I am referring to all methods used by the PGDB on Badger and they are in my opinion appalling, dirty and brutal and are what I like to think of as North American Mafia style tactics. (When the guilty Mob Bosses would influence and twist a court system as well as the general public to their favour through any necessary means)They had the general public convinced through the use of a slanderous media campaign Badger was guilty and a danger to society before things really even got underway. They will do and say anything they possibly can to win. It is no secret that they were fighting for their lives in that case as high profile members were at risk of being exposed as incompetent which would of in turn make the "Board'' as an organisation look incompetent for failing to heed word that would have possibly avoided the fish and chip shop explosion.
Anyone who buys into this bullshit is in my opinion naive. People who are tradesman in NZ and are also to afraid of the board to want to join the PGDF are also naive and are slowing down the wheels of change through lack of testicles, or in that matter a brain.
My quote of the day for all those out there who, like me are feeling disadvantaged, angry and used/raped while the mighty ''Board'' machine continues to gather un necessary revenue.
"When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose"
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Well said Mate. You have a clear grasp of what goes on. Just wish there were more who would take off their blinkers and grow a set, and stop brown nosing.
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So when are you guys going to have a victory over the board if your so right? Or is it not possible because everyone involved is conspiring against you???
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ts you should well know that in principal we are right and to sit there and rub in the fact that the PGDB holds all the cards because they are the goverment is a crap thing to do you may well have rolled over like a good little doggy but try not to smash the dreams of those that still have fight left in them ok let people live there dreams even if you think they are unachieable..in fact you are the whole reason were not getting very far like my boss he does not care enough to do something, when he has the power to do anything...for example as i have stated before TS what would happen if we ALL refused to pay our fees???? yea ypou know as well as i do that the goverment would NOT let this be and we would be heard and we would ALL STILL BE PLYING THE TRADE as you well know the govt would NEVER take all of us to court for not being licensed because they would look like douchbags and thats very bad press for them...but the heart of the problem is people like you who have lost the dream!...look im not trying to attack you but if you dont rearly have and constructive critsium then shut ya mouth! because negativity breeds on its self and the way you sound i would guess you being payed by the board to do this!
This is not a personal attack TS its just how i see it no offence intended!.
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Throughout history, great change but mainly political change always takes time. I dont think things will be so twisted and messed up forever.
Eventually trades people that the ''Board'' have used and abused over the years will be in a position to influence the Board or even be on it. Its already beginning to happen now. Someone will eventually understand that if wages and salaries are going nowhere fast in this industry they cant just hike fees for the hell of it and expect full industry support.
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For as long as there has been a board there have complaints. Are these guys worse than any before?
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I think it was Einstein who said "we can not use the same thinking that caused the problem to offer a solution", it has been a nightmare for 10 years......if you can't see it then your an ostrich or part of it.
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Actually TS I do believe that the last decade has dished up a huge shift in attitude from the PGDB towards industry. This began when Mr Routhan became Board chair and Ms Singleton took over as CEO. There was a palpable change in attitude and I believe this is when the breakdown and disconnect started with practitioners. Subsequent Board' s have never quite been totally cleared out and so this sort of collective thinking has carried on over the last few Boards. I believe that the Minister was well aware of this problem and it wouldn't surprise me if Ms Armstrong wasn't appointed to try and remove certain persons and clear the decks for people to move on. We did eventually see Mr Routhan removed and registrar and then a subsequent Employment Court hearing - which thankfully was resolved without him getting back as Registrar. I agree there have always been complaints, but you must agree that they have never been at a level they are now. This Board has an opportunity to bring industry along with them in assisting them to protect the health and safety of the public and yet they continue to lose trust and faith from the very people that 100% fund them. They used to operate within a reasonable budget in an office in Alicetown Lower Hutt, but the Routhan/Singleton area saw budgets being blown and reserves spent with gay abandon. A move to the Terrace was teh beginning of some serious empire building. I believe that something has to give soon - a lot of industry has got behind the Federation who are working through a lot of issues within a very small budget with no staff - i.e. all the work is done by volunteers on top of their day job. There are a number of irons in the fire including a petition for a commission of enquiry into the governance of the industry. You sound like you come from a background of working for a council or govt department so you know that these things are never done with any great speed and have to go through many layers of bureacracy - I say watch this space - as Rachael Hunter says - It may not happen over night, but it will happen.
And for the record, I don't mind if you don't agree with me, I enjoy the debate and the opportunity to understand why people think what they do. It would be a sad and boring world if we all agreed with each other.
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Hi guys. Jax what a good post from you to instill some stability to these escalating couple of Topics. It sure does stir up deep feeling with many emotive statements; I can see how these emotions can run away with us and finish up with some civil disobedience committed. You are right when you say :(I believe that something has to give soon) as issues that the Federation have put forward have had only gained negative feedback if any at all.
"we cannot use the same thinking that caused the problem to offer a solution" what a great quote this is, if only the board could use it in a positive way to work with the industry rather than `continue to lose trust and faith from the very people that 100% fund them`(quote from Jax)
cheers.
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hi guys, I am trying to find words for badgers rant but there are no words that can turn back the clock the harm has been done so anything in these posts will not relieve his nightmare so give him some space. cheers
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For as long as there has been a board there have complaints. Are these guys worse than any before?
well thats a question for the older plumbers out there TS...and from what i have heard ...YES!!! alot worse...its just like any faction of people that get overun by bureaucracy, First they start on the right path with all intent of doing good for all those conserned and saddly the origional idea gets overun by parties only with SELF intrest, Master Plumbers to name one...
i remember my boss commenting on how the council has changed over the years to the beast it is today!...back in the good old the council would actually help you hook up your water and help point you in the right direction to help solve any issues you had much like the PGDB... now days all the council and PGDB want to do is impose there will on you by way of non compliance fines.
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The problems with the Board are at least 15 years old. As for Councils blame the government. Its them that have made all the red tape. Councils enforce a national building code developed by the DBH and the extra hurdles are a direct result of a thing called accreditation which the DBH make the council's' go through. Its like CPD except 100 times worse for no result other than to frustrate inspectors and the tradespeople, neither of whom think the new rules have made buildings get built or plumbed any better.
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TS...... you sound disgruntled, lol.....grow a set and stand up to them ;)
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I've got a set Badger, I've also got brains which is why I'm quietly working through other avenues to bring about change. Your method is simply not working and all it is achiving is alienating yourself and others. You might win the odd battle but your certainly not going to win the war. Fight smarter, not harder and you'll get results if your determined and follow the right process.
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I would like to think TS that once the PGDF has enough members we will be able to launch an offensive move, at the moment you well know that we are a little ways from holding the power(and i mean power by ways of numbers)...exactly like what is happening in syria atm enough people have had enough with there opressive rulers and are standing up and doing something about it (only there fight is a heck of a lot more extreme than the one we now face with the pgdb!)...i would like to think once we hold the numbers that we refuse to pay our fees which is a passive/agressive move that would most certinaly see the pgdb go broke in a short amount of time at the current rate that they fritter away our hard earned cash...i dont believe we need to do anything rash but just deny them the one thing that they need to survive...OUR MONEY!...
I cant immagine 1000 odd pgd being done over by the board as this would see the end of them...because the public outrage would be such that it would be to there detriment to take action...like a chess game if we make the right move at the right time WE WILL WIN!
Its kinda good that we see them(pgdb) gloating over a failed victory because it shows us the smug contempt with which they operate.
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TS... I love it when people write me off it gives me more drive, thanks for that. It ain't over mate I haven't even started.
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Good for you ;)
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TS... I tried to warn about dodgy certs signing off dodgy work for SIX years , then an explosion happened and someone nearly died, then I was held responsible for exactly what I had tried to warn about, that persecution has happened for the last THREE years, I have been lied to and lied about, I have had evidence made up and with held, they even sent sick twisted case notes to my home, I have been the focus of a witch hunt, beyond doubt....... In all that time I have tried to and done the right thing, but you know what it is getting real old, real quick.
You have no idea what I have been through. Done by the people who you think are OK. Perhaps I have had enough of doing the right thing.
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Do you pay your own licensing fees TS or does the council sort you out for that? You dont seem too concerned at all about what goes on in the industry and just how much money is actually draining from your pocket to the PGDB compared to say electrical and the EWRB, except to run blokes down on here in your spare time in between seeing trades people on your inspections. Ive been pondering it today and the way you post it sounds like your above all this talk as if fair and equal treatment especially in regard to fees and excessive board expenditure arent a issue for you like they are for others. Which leads me to believe all your costs are covered CPD included by your employer a local district council.
Do you have anything positive to say about the PGDF or ideas about how the PGDB could sharpen up thats going to make me forge a different opinion of your current stance?? Im not trying to be a jerk but its not so easy out there at the moment for some of us tradies in case you guys at your heated council offices havent noticed.....
Got some ideas?? Lets hear your solutions then or other avenues you speak of.... This is an anonymous forum so your safe buddy.
Cheers, rodza 1
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I don't think too many council inspectors sit in heated council offices - everytime you ring to talk to one of them they are out on a job :)
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The crazy thing is Rodza, I am a stickler for following the code and really got in to this mess by getting off side with the big boys. I got off side with them by trying to tell the same people about the problem who were ultimately responsible for it all, ( by handing licences out willy nilly, to mates ).
I believe in doing a proper job and only got vocal when I repeatedly went to dangerous jobs and I felt for people getting ripped off by a guy who had no experience (or morals) as a tradesman (he sat no apprenticeship, none) but was in all the groups to give him kudos and made people think he knew what he was doing, master plumbers, LPGA, GANZ,NZIGE.......he was adding work to certs I had signed, I showed three examples with added writting after signature to the Board and Kerny called me vextatous......
When I was going to the board to complain I was telling his compardres and enabler's ....and they thought it was Christmas when they could go me........ he "resigned" from NZIGE the following month after the explosion.
But like TS said.... I deserve it for not following protocol ( which is roughly translated as ...don't rock the boat or we will set our dogs on you, oh and my lack of a brain too), the type of guy they are protecting once drew a line through the word "bedroom" on a building plan and replaced it with "study"....he did this after another tradesman (not me) said "you can't put this heater in a bedroom......he thought he was being smart.....that could be anyone's families house in Nelson.....but I should just shut up and allow this to go on.....but TS... because I am brainless I don't know when to shut up......He also told me it was all about "poker face, just make out you know what your doing" when he hooked up the rads on a C/H system to the hot water ring main, when I asked to see the schmatic because I didn't agree with stagnant water being atomised out of a guys shower making the legonalla bacteria easier to breath in. All told to the Board many years ago but still not acted on, lucky I am as thick as brick and have stallwarts like this guy to guide me. Like I said I got heaps and heaps most in writting, from the Board
The biggest way to fix this all....abide by the New Zealand Law Commission's best recommendations for an impartial industry Board and empty all these conflicts of interest.
Think along these lines and have a good read from the latest Board report.....so many people coming back to serve on the Board who have served before....... that'll work.
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come on TS I was enjoying the banter and quips, lets have a witty cleaver brainy reply, lol a disgruntled inspector that moves behind the sceans, sounds like batman and inspector boy, holy pipe spanners batman a new dark hero.....just what the industry needs, love it :D
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the way I see it the Inspectors should be encouraged to get on board with the fed - because at the end of the day the its going to be one or the other - either we have reg/licensing exams coupled with inspections for permitted work - or we have exam + CPD's and self certification - maybe one inspection under DBH for structural/preline/postline/COC - the country and industry is not big enough to warrant/justify/sustain everything...
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Well there are none so blind... than those that won't see mate, apparently according to some if it has been bad for 10 years then we should be happy for another 10, well that don't sit right with me.
YOU CAN'T HAVE AN INDUSTRY WITHOUT THE TRADES PEOPLE, it is ours. We need to reclaim what was taken from us.
Once upon a time an apprenticeship was enough, then someone came along and said that we were all incompetent and required licencing, training/upskilling and unless we had that then we could not work..............
The same people set up a new industry.............enforcing the training.......and running the license provider.........thank you PGDB
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sorry.....a typo, they didn't make any new industry, they hijacked an existing industry board, moved it from a small house with about 3 people to a mirrored skyscraper protected by a gaggle of lawyers, then told us they needed money to fund the said skyscaper and law team.....blatent.
And they act with impunity hiding behind laws and acts that were set up in good faith, which are now twisted in to their desired direction.....
I have had a pearler of a reply from them, watch this space. It is 33 pages long, you won't believe what they have commited to writing and said they have no problem with, going to take me awhile to work through.
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Hi guys,
If an organization existed and insisted on having members and also required those members to fund that organisation to obtain it`s services for mutual and beneficial advantages but that organisation stopped/altered the terms of it`s services to its members, then why would members continue to fund it?
The organisation may not agree or see that it`s new terms are anti-membership until it`s members stop the expected funding, then and only then would it look at the terms that have caused this lack of funding. New terms and conditions will now have to be established with all members for this organisation to continue to exist. Cheers
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Thing is mate we have a Mafia style organisation, "you f**** with us and you sleep with the fishes", try leaving and we'll knee cap you, etc
One of their lawyers was at a public relations (lol) meeting and when asked" why does the cost of running a register, etc cost so much?" the smug lawyer then said ....and I kid you not....."have you seen how much lawyers charge", then proceeded to boast how they had a 100% conviction rate and that the last time they went to court someone said "oh no here come the plumbing mafia" she said it like she was proud of that comment.
You got to remember Robbo, that they are not their for us in any way (unless your in with them) we are their cash cow that funds their lavish life style.
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Make no mistake - the PGDB are the plumbing, gasfitting and drainlaying Police and they have an Act to enforce. We are not, and never have been members of this organisation - we simply are required to fund it. Much like one could say every taxpayer in NZ funds the NZ Police. Funding them through taxes doesn't make you a member of the NZ Police. HOWEVER, if we don't like what we are getting from our taxes we have the opportunity to vote in a new government every three years. If we don't like what we are getting from the PGDB we can't remove them, BUT we can join the Federation, put in complains to the RRC, the PGDB, the Ombudsman, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Housing and Construction, the Auditor General ... and try and effect change. It will take time, it will take committment, and it will take numbers. Don't sit and moan, offer to set up a chapter in your area and organise a meeting, feed through the information to Wal and the executive and they will keep you informed about actions taken.
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hi guys, The pgdb, are 100% funded by registered/licensed tradesmen. All the time we continue to fund them they will carry on doing what they want whether we like it or not. We make official complaints they answer with spin to drag the chain, all the while the minister with the blessing of the govt continue to ignore us with more spin. If the govt could see that streamlining the operation would save money it would support us but they are not paying so they do not bother, just agree with the pgdb that the spin is working. One of the only actions that would make the govt intervene would be if the pgdb could not operate because of no funds coming in(I won`t mention the other actions I may get arrested)this would make it take a serious look at what has been going on then things would happen, the first I would imagine would be the minister getting kicked firmly into touch. An immediate pacification of all tradesmen to get the ship back on course with some obvious changes to the act/regulations taking place, so I say that until we stop funding this cost plus organisation nothing will change to stop the runaway and out of control freight train, cheers
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Robbo - this would work - and bring the organisation to its knees, but it would need a large % buy in to be effective. I believe that there is a way to do this legally and continue to work, but the advice is being fine tuned. It would indeed send a huge message to both the Board and government. Did you see that there are some 750 less licence holders than there were last year. Are these people out of the industry, or are they working unlicensed?
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hi guys, yes Jax a lot more guys now not picking up licences, wheather they are working or not the trend has been set and is there for all to see and started with C.B.L. for gasfitters where a lot of plumber/gasfitters just dropped the gasfitting,cheers
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I believe that there is a way to do this legally and continue to work, but the advice is being fine tuned.
I cant see any problem in the eyes of the law jax based on the fact that this qualification is a time served qualification and is a license of compentancy and untill your proven incompentant i believe you will be working within the bounds of the law in principal...of course paying a fee to those that regulate you does in no way deem you incompentant and i could never see how any judge in principal could deem you incompentant without firm evidence...and refusing to pay some idiots a ransom to ply your trade is no real evidence in my eyes.
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Yes Thunder, but if there is a way to work the system then it should be used to allow those with holding their fees to still work legally and there is some wiggle room in their Board's own system to have your application heard by the Board - this could take 1 - 2 months but if everyone did it - it would have the net effect of with holding money which they need, but not putting yourself at risk of prosecution. Still fine tuning and looking at options here
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come on TS I was enjoying the banter and quips, lets have a witty cleaver brainy reply, lol a disgruntled inspector that moves behind the sceans, sounds like batman and inspector boy, holy pipe spanners batman a new dark hero.....just what the industry needs, love it :D
Looks like your only in this to gratify yourself through arguing. Meanwhile I'm about achivieving victory on the ground rather than through an internet forum. I'm not a disgruntled inspector. I'm a plumber, gasfitter and drainlayer as well as a happily employed inspector.
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I am stating my case publically and this is but one place that I do this, I do not pick arguments mate, but I don't put up with bullshit either.
I was PUT in this position by those you think are OK and am merely sticking up for myself. I assure you the shit me and my wife have been through brings me no gratification.
So what is your plan for victory on the ground TS? the more people that know the stronger the movement.
I actually hate arguing with fellow tradesman. But I also don't like being robbed of my house, business and reputation and time with my family.
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- this could take 1 - 2 months but if everyone did it - it would have the net effect of with holding money which they need, but not putting yourself at risk of prosecution.
this is why we need to ACT AS ONE robbo because if we all withheld our fees and all continued to practise they would never in anyones dreams prosicute all of us...they would look like a bunch of douchbags if they even thought of trying this...all so the govt would immediatley launch a royal commision of enquiry into why so many trades people had revolted aghinst the system and there we have it the dirty actions of the board brought into the public eye!...as far as i see it robbo we have always had the power not them...they like to think they have the power but it is us on which they survive and so it is us who actually holds the power all we have to do is realise it and act as one unit...Thats why its so damb hard to get at the board because they ACT AS ONE UNIT its about time we act as one unit and wield our power!
if we act as one we will not be touched or finned or prossicuted because our case will sway public opinion a heck of alot stronger that some pokey old board will...just look at the reats revolt in mangawai the council was running for cover once the dirt was brought out into the light...and i know a similar situation will occur with the board esp when we have our wild card badger and all the rotten things of his case brought to the general publics attention...if we cant beat behind closed doors then i say take the fight to the streets... something like that anyways!.
TS may be doing something but i think he has choosen the wrong path as the wheels of the breaucratics move ever so sowly and ts would have passed on(no offence) and i would be an old man before we would see any REAL changes at all.
I would like to see us set a time frame that we as trades people would like this crap cleaned up in and set some deadlines...in essence we need to draw our line in the sand and act on it!
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Perhaps a Federation national advert in the media?
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Great idea - but at a cost of thousands of dollars - they simply don't have the funding. Remember that although the Federation has pretty close to a thousand members now, there is no fee to join and they survive on donations. If everyone gave the equivalent of a "pie a week" as suggested by the Federation they may be in a position to fund something like that, but more than likely they would rather use this money to build up a fighting fund for legal representation when they take the PGDB to court as is almost inevitable given how things stand.
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We are looking at helping and simplifying this even further. Our public shop and soon trade shop will be complete. Every product has a "PGDF margin" built into it. In most cases we are very competitive (its hard fighting the politics of suppliers!) and if not we have alternatives. Your clients wont be disadvantaged price or service wise. I hope to have an update on this in the near future.
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That would be awesome Plumber!!!
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Thanks Jaxcat, we cant wait for things to move forward, it's just unimaginable costly and time consuming as you can imagine. I really hope to announce the official launch soon. Doing our best on this end to support the industry!
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Plumber, a Mail order supplies set up with an on line "shop" would be great, thought of selling "shares" to set up mate ...I'd have a piece of that pie.
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Actually TS I do believe that the last decade has dished up a huge shift in attitude from the PGDB towards industry. This began when Mr Routhan became Board chair and Ms Singleton took over as CEO. There was a palpable change in attitude and I believe this is when the breakdown and disconnect started with practitioners. Subsequent Board' s have never quite been totally cleared out and so this sort of collective thinking has carried on over the last few Boards. I believe that the Minister was well aware of this problem and it wouldn't surprise me if Ms Armstrong wasn't appointed to try and remove certain persons and clear the decks for people to move on. We did eventually see Mr Routhan removed and registrar and then a subsequent Employment Court hearing - which thankfully was resolved without him getting back as Registrar. I agree there have always been complaints, but you must agree that they have never been at a level they are now. This Board has an opportunity to bring industry along with them in assisting them to protect the health and safety of the public and yet they continue to lose trust and faith from the very people that 100% fund them. They used to operate within a reasonable budget in an office in Alicetown Lower Hutt, but the Routhan/Singleton area saw budgets being blown and reserves spent with gay abandon. A move to the Terrace was teh beginning of some serious empire building. I believe that something has to give soon - a lot of industry has got behind the Federation who are working through a lot of issues within a very small budget with no staff - i.e. all the work is done by volunteers on top of their day job. There are a number of irons in the fire including a petition for a commission of enquiry into the governance of the industry. You sound like you come from a background of working for a council or govt department so you know that these things are never done with any great speed and have to go through many layers of bureacracy - I say watch this space - as Rachael Hunter says - It may not happen over night, but it will happen.
And for the record, I don't mind if you don't agree with me, I enjoy the debate and the opportunity to understand why people think what they do. It would be a sad and boring world if we all agreed with each other.
Ms Singleton may have had some influence after she left the PGDB , I bumped into her when I was involved with a fitout at the WN Law society , she had a copy of the draft 2006 act before it was public and offered me a copy to read . She certainly had a high level of interest at the very least , funny how we have a lot of legal people involved with the PGDB these days , Just coincidental I guess .
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The faces change but the course and direction stays the same.........because they source the faces from the same pool of people.
I just got turned down for a place on the Board.
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Over 2000 reads, please see my other posts on this site, a total cover up, and witch hunt, they tried to pin on me......
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for the 6 odd disgruntled plumbers active on this site as TS says that is one hell of a lot of views for the 6 of us ;D :P
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share it on facebook too mate, lol,TS...
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I reckon, that would have to mean according to TS we each view roughly 333 times to make it look like the topic is getting some heavy action from trades people around nz. As far as im aware I havnt done that..... :o Must be a conspiracy though...(sarcasm) :o :o :o :o
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Haha good old TS,
Havnt heard from you in a while Mr Official Important Council Inspector. Whats the matter, Still having a long smoko @ that council building telling everyone how important you are, are we?? :o
Suppose it has been a bit warm, the heat must be tough on you council guys. You gotta go with the flow so they say and do what they all do aye and stay out of the heat and inside in the air con stream haha. Sad
Oh thats right your fighting the big fight against the PGDB through the "back channels" not wasting your time like we apparently are aye so I suppose you've been reeeeally busy and all that.
Nah, your on here most days. You have plenty of spare time...... :o :o :o :o
TS...(Like a Boss) ??? ???
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Just noticed Rodza, this got over 6000 reads 8)
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Yeah thats a few aye badger but when you get idiots making histerical claims its bound to draw a lot of attention haha
He keeps smiting you ive noticed which for the record I find pathetic.
He may also be a plumbing forum mole that reports back to the "Board" with his findings, you never know. Might be his one claim to fame.
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lol, love it....bet its just not him smitting mate....I hope the Board see all this, couldn't give a flying....
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I hope they do too, so just in case they are reading along.....Dear PGDB I hate your organisation and everything it stands for.