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Here we go guys, 2 notices appeared on the notice board at work recently, both offering training. This is provided by Master plumbers. the 2 in question are solar heating and understanding[!] the new gas regs. Each course is worth 16or18 points. Each course is about 6 hours. Sounds good so far, turn the page though and discover that the points are $30 each[ +GST] 15 if you are a masterplumbers member. How much is our new licence next year now?!!! It was only a matter of time before those involved discovered a new revenue stream to keep their drinks cabinets full!!
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hi guys/Gordy, get the boss to pay you an extra $5.00 an hr for your new found knowledge and you have it covered,it`s worth a crack,cheers
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Saw this coming a mile away back when they introduced it for Gasfitting. ''They have created an industry, within an industry.'' is what I use to say to guys.
''Dollars for points scam'' is another phrase I also like that I recently heard. Most plumbers I know dont walk around with their eyes and ears shut to new things....why should we pay $30 a point for the opportunity to continue to learn. What next? Tool inspections?? Master Plumbers decide if our personal tools meet their new tool practicality based standard??
Imagine this scenario,
Im sorry Rodza1, this screw driver is a little worn and is not the MP screw driver of choice.(They will already have their own MP compliant tool companies set up by this stage and only their tools can be used on jobs etc) You are not competent to practice plumbing anymore until you purchase the required complying items referenced on our inspection sheet.
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hi guys, don`t laugh it may happen,cheers
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I'm no fan of the CBL (Competency Based Licensing) System, but I am a fan of continual upskilling. Upskilling that is necessary to the job and the company you work for - this would then be a cost to the business, whereas competency based licensing is a cost to the individual. Master Plumbers did not invent this system. Let's focus on who created it - the PGDB created it without any back up system what so ever to deliver. This left a void in the marketplace - and so Master Plumbers filled that void for its members, at the request of its members. On that basis, why would they deliver it at a cost for non members that is the same as for members? That would be crazy. Master Plumbers members have always had to upskill under their code of conduct - you agree to it when you join, now it is more formal as "points" are awarded. The system is not perfect - far from it. I agree that there should be courses that are "necessary to" as under Section 32 - but they aren't ever going to be free unless suppliers fund the cost of them - and why would they do this unless there is a benefit to them.
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hi guys/Jax, you know that when cbl was dreamed up, the board was stacked with Master Plumbers, they could have stopped it but saw an opening for their organisation,cheers
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You do have a point there Robbo, and perhaps is why the NZ LAW COMMISSION says it is not a good idea and that industry Boards should be free of industry interest groups, because of perceived impartiality......I have witnessed this first hand and they are not impartial.
I really believe that the majority of Master Plumbers are just like the rest of us, actually I know they are because I have met them and am one. But there are a small crew of self serving incidious people that are present.
I was actually told by one very high ranking member, that if I ever made a mistake, he would see that I was rail roaded, he said this before the explosion and boy did they follow through on that.....
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I dont agree with the concept of forced upskilling ,we continually are otherwise we would still be putting in lead waste pipes , every day is an upskill day, I had an issue this week with a water boiler I hadnt come across , rang the manufacturer , they emailed me the specs went through it sorted problem ordered parts, , I didnt bill the client for 1 hour of the time as I called it an upskill , no bloody points though,This is common and becoming more so with the amount of equipment out there , '
I have been to a so called flue gas anyliser course 3 hrs and probably $100.00 or more , the guy spent all the time talking about stuff we already knew , we didnt see an anyliser let alone get shown how they worked and how to use them , I bought a testo anyliser $2500.00 went on to youtube and watched a technician explaining it, setting up a boiler, learnt more from that in 15 minutes than at a so called approved course , the internet has anything you will ever need to know , .
When was the last time the PGDB identified a need to run a course from a common issue , the only one I can remember is the IPI gas system that was years ago , I am sure there are some common problems showing up , but why are they not identified ? and where is their leadership .
Take a look at the cowboy plumber site , there is a master plumber on there who needs some serious upskilling , unbelievably he is an ex president of MP .
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Hi, the solar course in question was offered 6 months previously[approx] ,by the same people,before master plumbers claimed it, for free! Are there any on line things sorted yet? We still get most of our points frm kindly suppliers, but only because i work at a large company. My problem with the whole scam, oops sorry scheme, has allways been how i would fare if i lived where may olds live. [Middle of nowhere!]. drive to nearest big city? Pay someone else for my days work? Catch up on a precious sunday? Lose custom as i cant be there? Or just ignore the whole bullshit!!!!!
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Take a look at the cowboy plumber site , there is a master plumber on there who needs some serious upskilling , unbelievably he is an ex president of MP .
I agree with continual upskilling, but I'll be f****ed if I'm going to pay a cent for it... I'll go to any course that's free, and relates to our industry. Otherwise all of my upskilling is self directed. Example - I'm installing an 18 litre LPG Rheem integrity in a few days, 27 years in this industry, never an integrity, hundreds of Rinnai and bosch instanantaneous units, but never an integrity. Last night I 'upskilled', got all the installation and commissioning data. Studied it. Know it now. I didn't pay anyone for it either, cost nothing more than some time, I don't need that useless rain of bastards on the terrace to tell me what I need to learn.
I've FORGOTTEN more about plumbing and gas than their entire collective knowledge put together.
Now that's off my chest, I've opened my 2nd steinie, where's this 'cowboy plumber' site?
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yeah it does feel good to download now and then cheers , enjoy your steiny
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it is cathartic and beneficial to vent......how about at the Road show that the Board are organising....I feel like Mt Tongarero mate....
Dates below and venue.....might see you at one fellas....
The Board will soon host a series of public meetings around NZ
Later this month the Board will commence public consultation on its comprehensive fees review. Information will be sent to all licensed tradespeople by post and will be made available online.
From 4 September to 3 October, the Board will host a series of public meetings around New Zealand. We encourage tradespeople to come along and express their views on the review.
SCHEDULE OF MEETINGS
4 September, 6pm
Invercargill
Ascot Park Corner Tay Street and Racecourse Road
5 September, 5.30pm
Christchurch
Chateau on the Park, Corner Deans Avenue and Kilmarnock Street
11 September, 5.30pm
Auckland, North Shore
North Shore Events Centre (Kings Hall), Wairau Valley
12 September, 5.30pm
Auckland, Manukau
Jet Inn (Totara Room), Manukau
18 September, 5.30pm
Dunedin
Scenic Hotel Southern Cross (Cargill Room), Corner Princes Street and High Street
19 September, 5.30pm
Nelson
Trailways Hotel (Matai Room), 66 Trafalgar Street
25 September, 5.30pm
Wellington
Johnsonville Club, Argus Place
26 September, 5.30pm
Palmerston North
Kingsgate Hotel, 110 Fitzherbert Avenue
2 October, 5.30pm
Hamilton
Ibis Hotel, 18 Alma Street
3 October, 5.30pm
Tauranga
Smart Business Centre, 65 Chapel Street
From the Board today
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Which one are you going to hit up Badger??
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All of them, if I could mate. I think we should find a center that the most of us can get to...and I'll go to that one, any ideas mate, inbox me, don't want them to know which...
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can anybody please help me understand how in the interest of pubic safety the purchasing of last years brownie points is going to help the customers be safe from work i have already undertaken
just wondering..............perhaps a refund to them is required
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hi guys/craftsman, don`t try to work it out the whole thing is a scam to put our hard earned into their pockets,cheers
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yep, robbo thats it, catch up
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Perhaps the Board need some upskilling in providing the right books and exam delivery.......a right cock up apparently at the exams, in Wellington any way, its hard enough doing exams with out the added stress of incompetence of the delivery of the literature(and apparently someone was allowed to leave to use the phone)....but if the Board make a mistake, its human error and excusable, but if we make an honest mistake.....well, even if we don't do anything wrong they will fit you up anyway.
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Hi, does anyone out there understand their cpd balance on the boards website? It seems i have 110 points, next year i need 32[although 4x9 dosent equal 32!] which leaves me a balance of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, yes you got it right 20!!!!!W.T.F?
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hi gordy, maybe you could through a few my way.... :D,
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I was offering the boys at work ;D but sadly ,it seems the board have more need of them than me. The thing is that most of the points have been paid for, exams, site safe, first aid etc all cost, so as they have been bought and paid for, then they belong to me, not the board. So what gives them the idea that they can [discount/ ignore, steal] them.Please insert whichever word you feel appropriate! >:(
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the whole things a joke - been meaning to ask this question -
If i am undertaking related nzqa unit standards where 1 credit equals 10 hours study/course time - this must mean conversely that 1 nzqa unit standard credit = 10 cpd points as 1 cpd is the equivalent of 1 hr study/course time
and IMHO surplus points should roll over - not that we should have to be putting up with this shiite anyhow
my advice to anyone is to only undertake upskill/cpd courses that are nzqa unit standard accredited - that way you WILL ACTUALLY get some benefit from it - aint no way i'm wasting my time with vented traps and valve assemblies...
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If you were allowed to accumulate CPD (as you say mate all bought and paid for)....then the training providers would loose an opportunity to carry out a business transaction.... an opportunity refreshed/reset every 12 months, it gets wiped clean and you start again, a whole new money spinner every 12 months.
Perhaps after 12 months our memories expire and we forget all that we have learned :o
People who are also members of one of the biggest training providers/profiteers are over represented on the Board....the same Board that makes us retrain every 12 months .......hmmmm funny that.
This group helps/assists to force CPD on an industry and polices it.........then runs a business profiting from it and it is used as an incentive to join their cabal...........perhaps that's why the NZ Law Commission says that industry Boards should be free of industry groups, but it is ignored by the Minister
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I need 48 points a year to re-license as a plumber,gasfitter and drainlayer ??? Are you f****in serious???
After I paid $5k for plumbing gas apprenticeship,$2k for drainlaying apprenticeship, $1221 for x3 first time rego fee with $50 certificate included,x3 $300 rego exams,x2 $300 plumber and gas certifier exams fees, $816 for first time rego as cert plumber and gasfitter. All this before tools,expenses, and above all license fees and CPD...... I feel so let down by those that control this country and industry. Ive worked so hard to get my qualifications...just to be roadblocked by fat cats seeking more of what little I have ($$$).
$1440 a year for CPD for 3 licenses, plus annual license fees of $571.66....$2011.66 per year to be able to go to work is not worth the hassle,thats me personally. Its just not worth it. I think I will go study something business orientated extra murally and keep my current job, and no longer bother to relicense. I thought we needed 24 points per year as a holder of three licenses,what a shock to see it double...
OMFG I cannot believe this....what has NZ come to?? This is way beyond reasonable........I may as well keep the job I have that currently pays me $1 less per hour to not be a plumber/gasfitter or drainlayer and not bother with any licenses or CPD or any of their bullshit. The destruction of our trade is complete.
At a cost of $30 per point as a non master plumber member?? I can see whats going on...$15 per point as a master plumber member. They are trying to force people through financial means into joining master plumbers through value for money so they continue to dominate the industry and the board and the PGDF as the sole leading majority voice of a crumbling industry they control as theirs.
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From the boards website 18/11/2012
How many points do I need by 31 March 2013?
The following table shows the number of CPD points that are required by tradespeople to relicense by 31 March 2013:
NUMBER OF LICENCES HELD/ TOTAL NUMBER OF POINTS REQUIRED/ SELF-DIRECTED LEARNING
One 24 A maximum of 3 points may be from self-directed learning
Two 40(at least 9 points per trade) A maximum of 5 points may be from self-directed learning
Three 48(at least 9 points per trade) A maximum of 6 points may be from self-directed learning
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And the more people who leave the trades (forced out by bullshit and bullies)..... leave these people the lion share of the work....which I am sure they will be happy to do and charge a premium for it, imagine what you can charge if your the only ones with licences and you run the Board too.....people think they are paying a lot now for some plumbing work, wait and see........
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From the boards website 18/11/2012
How many points do I need by 31 March 2013?
The following table shows the number of CPD points that are required by tradespeople to relicense by 31 March 2013:
NUMBER OF LICENCES HELD/ TOTAL NUMBER OF POINTS REQUIRED/ SELF-DIRECTED LEARNING
One 24 A maximum of 3 points may be from self-directed learning
Two 40(at least 9 points per trade) A maximum of 5 points may be from self-directed learning
Three 48(at least 9 points per trade) A maximum of 6 points may be from self-directed learning
thats for two years rodza - due to the fact we didnt require anything for last license yr - its back dated!!
it will be half of what you see there per year there after next license year - ie 12cpd points for 1 trade, 20 for 2, 24 for 3
still a crock of absolute arse though - no other trades require this - and i still trying work out where the mandate for this is?!?!?
where are all the stats showing the deaths and injury/illness that our trades are causing for this to be implemented?!!?
would also like to see all other trades and professions that have the potential to cause death + illness/injury listed as a speadsheet showing license cost per annum, cpd points required per annum, cost of cpd points per annum, cost of initial training and exam/registration!!!!!!!!!!
^^^I think that would make for some interesting reading^^^
I would assume we would have the highest associated trade costs except maybe for doctors
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So they were pulled up on implementing cpd without proper industry consultation and all that s**t.... so all thats happened between then and now is they have doubled our points for the next licensing year to make up for this year while they lobby govt to get there way...so they get away with it all....again.
Great....just great...glad its not permanent for 48 points per year, but fark me, its still not going to make me want to pick up a crescent any time soon.
Its funny how I can re-build the brakes in my 39 year old holden, which in getting it wrong could kill me or worse yet, randoms and I dont have to hold a license. But I cant do up or undo a 15mm crox nut because according to the board its not a matter of if I kill someone from my own neglegence but when.....
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''Its a sad day when it becomes a reality that the career I chose, becomes no longer financially viable to go to work in it anymore.......that day is close''
Rod.S
18-11-2012
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yup
sadly your right on all counts rodza
if they dont let me use my trade related unit standard credits i'll be with ya - not relicensing
I am not wasting my time with their bull shiite supplier marketing leverage courses that leave you with absolutely nothing at the end of them - feking joke
really cant get over how many just put up with it all - just put your charge out rates up man...
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hi guys/Rodza (Its funny how I can re-build the brakes in my 39 year old holden) Don`t speak to soon!! cheers
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Well as long as you are good at what you do no one can stop you from backyard diy automotive if you catch what im getting at.
But with plumbing its much different...Told my WOF inspector what I had done, he inspected,everything was up to scratch, pass etc.
Its not like I had to have a signed repair sheet from my mechanic saying its all done by a professional mechanic before he would even look at it. If the powers that be wanted in the auto world they could ban people from their own oil changes even,let alone brakes...as is a risk to public safety if oil leaks onto the road causing a crash....but its not. What the board have created is a joke...people die every day from things 100 times worse than plumbing that are virtually unregulated. its just an excuse to bleed more money from us.
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hi guys/Rodza, (people die every day from things 100 times worse than plumbing that are virtually unregulated) yeah car accidents is just one example,cheers
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and cancer!... think its the number one killer isnt it ? :(
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I've been thru the list of courses for drainlaying and there are very few that are technical. Almost all are Health & Safety. How is one supposed to g et the technical points
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where do they keep the list of courses wombles?
not sure how you would get the technical - maybe look at some civil papers?
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How much can you learn, relearn and learn again over a career of say 30 years......yet another well thought out bag of crap imposed by the "experts".
It used to be, and had been for 100's if not 1000's of years that someone who was involved in a trade did an apprenticship, spent time as an improver....then through the experience gained became a master at his/her craft and then passed that knowledge on to his apprentices and improvers.....until someone saw a profit to be made.
I wonder how much CPD the imposers of CPD do, because from my experience the most incompetent people in our industry, who are in need of re-training, are those who think every one else needs it.
S**t still does, and always will roll down hill......sadly figuratively and literally.
I heard the Board were going to have their xmas doo in the tui brewery.....but couldn't get it organised.
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http://www.pgdb.co.nz/trade/cpd.html
Here is the list of approved courses. Not much available for those who live out of main centres.
My main point which wasn;t made too well, is how many H&S courses do we need. Surely industry information would be far mmore appropriate.
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Just keep renewing your health and safety policy , so the the providers keep enjoying the standard of living they have now become accustomed to, the local provider around here has a flasher fleet of vehicles than the government , all payed for by you and me , but then again we are much safer now aye ( yeah right ) I dont know about the rest of you but I have had enough of the bullshit , being self employed I tell them to get stuffed and find a real job , when they put the put health and safety personnel outside the fast food shops they can come and talk to me , until then F/., off
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And now ....No shoulder charges in league....rules being introduced by the PC brigade, physios and "experts", but not wanted by the fans or the guys actually on the pitch.
I love "experts", who have never picked up a ball and /or spanner, but appear to know everything about what we do......... where would we be without them ;)
You can see them at the training camps for the army, ban those bayonets.....you'll have someones eyeout with that, cone off that bunker, do you have a confined space permit......where are we headed?
Led by these people who impose shit on us for our own good......... cheers life saver..........My Gramp would have thought what a bunch of leeches.
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I see on my pgdb login that my exams from years past have been worth 16 points cpd - how the hell do all of these other up-skill courses claim to be on par or above that of sitting a gasfitting certifying exam?!?
f n crock
and sounds like the precedent has been set - complain about it loud enough and hard enough an you are exempt from the cpd requirement to re-license... (not that its a legal requirement anyhow)
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Guess what. Ihear on the grapevine that someone has been told that they dont need points. must have complained long and loud.
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hmmm very interesting!
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hi guys/Rodza (Its funny how I can re-build the brakes in my 39 year old holden) Don`t speak to soon!! cheers
If I was rewarded properly for my work,skills and quals Robbo which I am not,I would happily pay someone to work on my cars but being a certifying plumber/gasfitter, licensed drainlayer in NZ i cant F*CKING afford it.....I do believe the time has come for the minister to suck my balls....and everyone on the PGDB, and the people who are using CPD to gain wealth @ the Master Plumbers...form a line and suck it. Suck my balls and suck them gooooood. Bunch of A-holes.
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Hi guys/Rodza, I think the minister is too busy hiding somewhere to be bothered with your request where he can avoid our trades problems, he seems to have run out of ideas of how to deal with this dysfunctional board but is not going to admit it. The last letter I sent to him he replied saying that he had passed it on to another department. As for the others, they will be getting worried that their master plan of huge wealth is falling apart, cheers
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hi guys, got this from Plumbing World today many of you guys would probably have received it too but for any others and if you are interested, here is the exel file of points training that is available,cheers