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Offline roberto

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apprientices treated like slaves.......
« on: May 12, 2012, 08:39:51 PM »
As a apprientice (and I know this is not always the case) I was never tought how to do repairs or maintenance on anything, I was just there to make the boss money (greedy bastard!!) and do all the jobs he and the some of the other plumbers didnt want to do,

 eg: drill holes in framing, break concrete, dig drains by hand, etc, - I believe this is not how you become a plumber!!!, although it doesnt hurt sometimes to help out.

I was on a large job site one day a few years back when I was a apprientice, working with a licenced plumber, who was really good to me, and taught me alot about plumbing,

 Just after lunch time one day the boss arrived on site and said to the plumber I was helping "Have you got him here drilling holes in studs and cutting dwangs/nogs?????"
(at the time the plumber was showing me how to pipe out a small 25ltr hwc - as id never done one and there were three to do on the job)

The plumber was horrified!!! he said to our boss "NO!!! hes here to learn, not to be a slave!!!"

With that our boss just grunted and stormed off in a shitty mood!!! hahaha

I thought this was really good of the plumber I was working with,

I installed the 3 hwc's, the first one took 4 hours, the second took two hours and the third was done in a little over a hour, and the plumber I was with was really helpfull, If i had a question he would always come and help me out or give me the answer!!! GREAT!!!

This is the way I think all apprientices should be treated, to learn and not to be slaves!,

If I ever go out on my own I would always help out any apprientice I take on!

how was your boss to you as a apprientice?? good, bad???

Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/plumbing-gas-fitting-and-drainlaying-apprentice-support/3/apprientices-treated-like-slaves/1106/

Offline Thunderhead

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 11:03:52 AM »

haha i feel ya there roberto...even to this day (Licensed stage) i am doing the shit work for my boss any underhouse or tight a**ehole jobs and guess who gets pulled off the big jobs for a day only to be given the shit end of the stick...i dont mind doing it but would like to be apreicated a little more for having to do all the groveling jobs...i do it mainly because i know hes too old and broken to do it nowdays lol...well at least thats what i like to tell myself..

Off topic...i brought some elbow pads the other day and they fricken rock i was getting sick of going under on buildings with small stones or rock hard clay under.

Offline Rodza1

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 01:21:54 PM »
Hey Roberto,

I know what you mean. Most employers don't think of actually teaching their apprentices, just what the next job is they will be dropped off at to hand dig new house drains  for a week etc. So the slave labour thing is in my opinion not too far from the honest truth.

I have witnessed it repeatedly with companies Ive worked with and also for myself. (Am currently at reg plumber/gas/drainage level myself)  I was treated like utter trash during my apprenticeship and ever since I have been trying to do the opposite with every apprentice I am involved with and give them an experience I largely missed out on. It is very rewarding to see a guy you've been mentoring to start to click and gain some real forward momentum with his skills and knowledge.

There is nothing wrong with doing the hard yards in this industry as an apprentice though,i love a good hard days work but when its coupled with belittlement, low wages, not being taught anything for years on end, dressed down for employers own mistakes, repeatedly soaked/covered in mud, not allowed much if any leave if makes it seem like SLAVE labour to me as well....I could go on with further examples as there are many iv'e witnessed but for now I wont.

I find it appalling how especially young guys brand new to the work force are taken advantage of and used.  Told they have to supply their own PPE etc, another example iv'e seen so they go buy PPE out of their own wages because they don't know about the HSE Act 92 etc, and the employer keeps that information from them. It's terrible. Actually iv'e seen and heard of so much of this now in my own area I expect it's prevalent throughout NZ, please correct me if I am wrong...would love to hear otherwise!   

Iv'e seen guys, young guys used and abused. Shown little to nothing about the trade for years, and then openly MOCKED for not knowing much/enough by their employers when they want to sit their reg exams.

 I know one guy who is a very good apprentice/recently registered now and has taken so much shit most guys would have committed murder by now etc,myself included. His boss hasn't even let him put in 1 HWC,or replace an existing one during his apprenticeship and he still just got to registration level. I saw a lot of potential in him and he was a decent respectful guy but the employer only saw cheap labour to break up concrete, un-block drains,dig holes and cuss out if he was having a bad day. To my amazement this guy absorbed it all though! Not that he should have had to. ( His wrists are totally shot now though,from repeated vibration,needs an op) 
When he achieved registration the employer took all the credit around his own building/electrical mates too..."If it wasn't for me he wouldn't have got there etc.

(I know this to be all fact as I also worked there and left after 18months, saw it all and far far far more with my own eyes...you guys reading this have no idea.)



When it comes time to open up my own business I wont be my employees so called 'mate', but i will ensure they are paid for their skill level, not left on min wage for 3.5years etc,happy and I will most certainly ensure that proper training is given (not what like I got), including training in required aspects of Health & Safety.

I would like to set up a little training workshop in the back and show my guys things after hours over a beer one day, take questions if they have any etc.

   

The Plumbers Gasfitters And Drainlayers Board- "White Collar Mafia"

Offline robbo

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 06:55:05 PM »
hi guys, Rozda says:-
Most employers don't think of actually teaching their apprentices, just what the next job is they will be dropped off at to hand dig new house drains  for a week etc. So the slave labour thing is in my opinion not too far from the honest truth.

Be carefull Rozda that you don`t upset a few employers who subscribe to this Forum,cheers


Offline roberto

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 09:24:11 PM »
well maybe those employers need to realise just because they were treated like crap in their day doesnt mean the young guys need to be today!!!

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 03:35:13 AM »
Mate - not all employers are like this - not all employers pay minimum wages throughout an apprenticeship and make people buy their own PPE gear etc.  Firstly - apprentices need to check out employers before they apply for an apprenticeship or job there.  Ask around - read reviews on trade sites, see what groups they are members of, talk to people who already work there, check out if they have trained apprentices before, - ask at the local polytech.  Secondly - read your employment contract (oh what they don't have them - then don't go there - it is illegal not to have a written contract), clarify what the progression is including training and pay rises for apprentices, thirdly - read what it says about PPE gear etc.  It is the employer's legal responsibility to provide all health and safety gear end of story.  Apprentices who are not treated well can go to the ITO if a discussion with their employer does not prove satisfactory.

From an employer's point of view - after years of employing apprentices I can tell you some of the issues I face(d) - PPE gear left at home, PPE gear issued and not worn because for some reason they are superman and won't get injured, lateness (hungover, girlfriend issues, mum didn't wake me up, my car broke down, I don't have enough petrol to get to work, it is a day ending in "y".  Distance learning not completed, constant chasing up of apprentice to undertake reading, putting on special night classes in house that certifiers run just for apprentices to help them to learn some of the trade science concepts and apprentices wanting to be paid to attend.  Apprentices wanting to be in a van on their own mid way through because "everyone else at block course but me has their own van" - with a complete lack of understanding about how lucky they actually are to still be with a fully qualified tradesman learning rather than learning via mobile phone.  Payrises requested because they "know what other people in the firm are on and they want it to because they can't pay their bills - but the $100 - $200 I drop on booze on a weekend doesn't count."  Sick days disappearing within the month they are allocated, wanting more than their 20 days annual leave because their mates are still at school at get 6 weeks off at Christmas - and not to worry if I won't get 6 weeks paid leave because mum and dad will top me up.  One day's digging = 2 days off recovering etc  Believe me having apprentices is a joy, certainly a challenge and sometimes more trouble than it is worth, however most tradesmen will tell you that they owe it to industry to train at least one person - and at the end of it all it is worth it but sometimes mid way it doesn't feel like it will be.  Every apprentice you take on is a risk, but apprentices have some responsibilities themselves - the Labour Department will check out all wage infringements etc - but try to discuss these things with your boss - have your facts together and act like a grown up.  Take a support person with you if needs be.  Believe me it's not all roses dealing with apprentices from the employers point of view either!
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline roberto

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 09:49:24 AM »
excuses excuses!

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 08:17:12 PM »
And the other thing I forgot to say was if you wanted cheap labour then you wouldn't hire an apprentice - you would hire a labourer, get him or her an exemption and not have them off at block course, or other training... 

Offline integrated

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 09:23:41 PM »
JAX!!

word up!

couldnt have said it better - on the head!

Offline Rodza1

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 10:48:40 PM »

 Ok Robbo, fair point. I'll change my wording...SOME employers i have met or worked for in my area or have been told about from others experiences aren't very willing teachers at all and take full advantage of the trust a person brand new to the work force places in them as the employer.Lying,mis-leading etc. Some i have come across choose to prey on the young lads who are usually pretty naive being new to the every day grind of work by removing some of their basic rights to save $$$ instead of honoring their original word and being a fair boss. If you are reading this and love to strip away workers basic employment rights just to add a third or fifth level onto your own home then this is directed at you also, you make me sick. I dont really care actually who this pisses off as i have kept my head down for years and been the good little worker and said nothing so as not to rock the boat, but ''The Hits Just Keep On Comin' so decided to talk about just a SAMPLE of what i have seen and experienced in NZ. After all this is a forum, debate about an issue someone can plainly see is a good thing.

What I'm trying to say is that in my region more than a few GOOD employees are treated poorly from what iv'e experienced and I wanted to know what its like in the rest of Nz, this is not a beat up on employers in general, anything but. It is info that i seek.

Jaxcat, you make valid points but you have worded things you think all new apprentices should be doing from an experienced tradesmans point of view( no one new to the work force that has no experience of full time work) would ever think to check out if a employer is honest and trustworthy or not(how do you even gauge that from a if they use pokerface??which some do and simply lie, or it takes months to become obvious.) I feel you are blaming some employers deceptive behaviours regarding trainees back on all bad apprentices you have encountered personally. Is this forum just for business owners or something? I thought it was for everyone involved with this industry.Good apprentices deserve to be treated properly in the work place..it shouldnt be like the old days. Thats BS.

I will use myself as an example, i came from a small rural town of 4000 people, there were two plumbing companies, no polytech to check out to gather info about the company, the company was not on any trade site or plumbing company comparison website(they didnt exist), no one to speak to about the business, but if i did they would say its ok,but hey they dont work there themselves so not really helpful!!, (didnt know the other employees from a blade of grass, nor did i see them or meet them untill i started,1 of them said it was ok...) and it was the only apprenticeship going in the town at the time. I did a three month trial, got accepted after a successful trial, continued work and got told my apprenticeship papers would arrive soon(ended up taking 9months after the three month trial finished as he constantly forgot/lied that they were waiting for the ITO to do their bit etc and he would definitely sort it. In that time the cost of the apprenticeship rose from $1300 to $5000, not that he cared as it wasnt his bill it was mine. Went up $1 an hour in 2.5 years, got shown stuff all. There was plenty of yelling,verbal abuse and blame put on us when he stuffed up jobs which was a real confidence knocker as a young person trying there guts out continuously just to impress him. A fourth year apprentice was on $1 more than i was on  when i started and he was more than capable of working independently with plumbing, gasfitting and drainlaying and usually did. I thought that this is how the industry worked when you were an apprentice/labourer,low wages and ultra hard work. What i did know was that plumbing was hard work and wages low at first so was determined to stick it out and show him he could not break me.One week he and I did a 70hour week with no lunch breaks in the freezing sleety rain and snow,appalling conditions and i backfilled hundreds of metres of watermain sticky soaking clay dirt trenches down steepish rural hills in an isolated area by myself at his direction while he moved dirt around on flat ground in a digger. (Down play and dis- credit me if you want but i know i was there,what he said to me and how hard it really was...no ITO there to mediate Jaxcat,couldnt even get phone reception way out there) As is in the army i followed orders.As a young guy with no previous experience i had nothing to compare my work experiences to and thought this was the norm. After nearly 2.5 years I knew where i was heading which was no where fast,very low pay, little to no training but i was good at digging!!,small town and he showed his true colours, he was grumpy and an asshole to boot so i decided to leave. I may have been just the 'Boy' but i was still a human being. He wouldnt even sign me over to someone else in another city so i had to pay for the non-mutual apprenticeship transfer through the ITO. It was $500. I tried to say goodbye and shake his hand when i left on my last day, his wife in the office wished me well but he turned his back on me and walked off across the road.  Clearly JAXCAT that experience was completely all my fault?? and i as a young and self-admitted slightly naive individual(at that time), who was new to the trade industry, i should have known better and instantly had the knowledge you currently have at certifying level the second i walked in that door from college in early 2003. I could have done things better to my advantage at the time but how was i to know what to do back then.
 
Back when i entered this trade i thought if you worked untill your hands bleed you would at a very MINIMUM be treated fairly and within at least some of the boundaries of employment law... at a minimum. Thats all i expected. I never expected it to be like it was ...but how wrong i was. You live and you learn, the next employer was much better by the way, just re-inforcing that yes there are good employers out there.Using all the services like the ITO for mediation, employment law etc is great...if as a young person you know who to see and where to go, and realise that certain actions/behaviours are un-acceptable.

 I was a good honest person just looking for equality and fair treatment and a opportunity to learn when i started (2003) just like what the PGDF is all about and i was more than happy to dig and do other hard labour tasks!! 

 
 The same really should apply for apprentices as employers then....not all are bad...some actually want to learn and come from good backgrounds with strong work ethic...Maybe employers struggling to find decent help should hire what they think is a stand up decent young bloke and then get him on a trial period first and then EVALUATE his potential....that way you wont get the excuses, lateness, whineing for more money etc etc etc kind of guys...it goes both ways...its in my opinion largely the trainees fault for not performing his duties satisfactorily but also the employer letting themself down if they hire any old young person off the street and expect greatness from every one of them.Theres bound to be the bad apples that dont show up etc, more so than ever today..if it was that easy training them would be a 100% success nationwide..There are still good blokes out there who have their head screwed on and aren't on the piss 24-7 and value their apprenticeship. Maybe you should have hired me instead lol,plumbing/gas/drainlaying/roofing is my life... not saying i was perfect but hell i find the list of training downsides that past apprentices have done pretty shocking. No matter what was done or said to me or where i worked i always held my employers in high regard, was straight up and gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were still a good person.It was not untill i matured as a trades person i realised that some of them were without a doubt not who they made out to be (Pokerface), honesty and integrity meant nothing to them and they would sell someone down the river over $5 etc etc and often did.

Once again this is not a beat up aimed at any employers in nz or anywhere else in the world. Simply pointing out some of the problems young new naive workforce entrants face including myself once upon a time that we should'nt have had to, and chronicled a small selection of my first experiences as a labourer and as an apprentice to give an example. What I am trying to point out is that ive experienced young guys trying to get a head start in this industry and often have it tough, no mentoring etc and are largely on their own. I jump at every opportunity i get to help good young guys, like explaining things like how the PGDB works, exams, block courses, fees, assignment questions, what they are entitled to and what they are expected to provide.

I know a few guys in my area who went through similar things to myself and still do...the reason why i feel so strongly about this.
Sorry for trying to be an advocate for the fair treatment of all workers, especially new apprentices/labourers unaware of all of their rights.



The another thing is why should a potential apprentice have to pick a good honest employer? They should obey the basic rules of employment by default....and its the apprentices own fault etc, are you for real???? A young guy that is an 18 year old school leaver is suppose to know all those things and perform a self-diagnoses of a perspective company he is interested in working for and know everything about wages, health and safety, honesty from the employer etc. Get your head out of the clouds, no young people straight out of school are capable of working all that out. Especially when they are confronted with a 53 year old tradesman who is hard as nails, and doesnt answer questions, just gives orders etc... You should come meet some rural plumbers in the Manawatu-Wanganui area. I would love to see a potential new 18 year old apprentice make them answer 50 questions from a young newbie and dick around trying to work out if the employer is honest or not.Apprenticeships were hard to get when i started, got to jump at any chance.  I have always thought a big help to having a successful business is to hire the right staff, reliable guys who work hard etc.

You really hate apprentices by the sounds of it Jaxcat...maybe you need to screen potential new staff members first. If i hired a guy that i was training who turned into a loser id blame myself in part personally for not making a better informed decision about who i was getting.

I'm not trying to get a BASH UP on employers here, definitely not as i want to be one myself soon. You have mis-interpreted my post a bit. I'm trying my best to highlight dodgy bosses that screw over there young guys, and the young guys take it because they need their job,and cant easily get another one in some towns.

All im saying is that where i come from i have had poor experiences mostly from the three employers ive had over 9 years and ive seen guys that show up and perform their duties well (above average actually) say like senior apprentices, get beat down hassled, poked , prodded, mocked, belittled, for no good apparent reason and i find it appalling. One particular employer was so bad i still think about it almost daily and that was six months ago.Once again...my previous post is not a BEAT UP on employers in general,just the dodgy ones!!

 Im simply saying that ive seen some pretty terrible stuff in the region i work in and have been wondering if its widespread or not as some of the things ive seen,heard and been told to my face ive found truly eye opening and jaw dropping. To test if i was going insane or not  i have spoke to other tradesman about it locally and re- created some of the conversations and repeated word for word some of the things i'd experienced. What i got was jaw dropping responses every time so it has had me thinking that if i know multiple guys operating in one city like this whats going on???   i dont plan on being like those particular individuals. I think screening and knowing who you are getting etc, getting to know them before making your decision and trial periods are important tools to use to being a good employer, not just the physical tools you pick up.

 You just can't hire anyone in this day and age, first in the door and expect them to be perfect.

I will say though that it is getting harder and harder to find decent people to train FOR SURE. Lazyness, T.V, fast food, playstation . It is widespread, but i hold hope i will one day find some good guys eager to learn.

Iv'e had a few that have been put with me before that are a total WASTE OF SPACE, but i have met some really good ones aswell.


Offline Jaxcat

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 06:51:17 AM »
Well said - and for the record I don't hate apprentices.  I currently have five in my employ - and surprisingly enough all the examples I used came from the over 30 odd apprentices that we have put through in our time.  And yes we saw all of them through to registration and beyond - many of them still working for us now.  It's not that they were bad apples, losers or anything like that - in fact far from it - it is just that at different times during their apprenticeship they couldn't see the wood for the trees.  I work on pretty simple principles - you are honest and up front with me and I am the same with you.  I will treat you fairly, pay you properly, encourage you and ensure you get the best training that can be offered within the parameter of work we have to do - but in return I expect an apprentice to honour the agreement they have signed, to work fairly, not to lie to me and to earn their money.  The way I describe it is this - I pay for 8.5 hours a day - and I want 8.5 hours a day, not 8, not 9 - just what I have paid for.  It is an exchange - you are selling me your time and I have negotiated to buy it.  You don't walk into a dairy and buy a block of chocolate, have the owner take a bite out of it and then sell it to you at full price.  A work day is the same.

I note what you say about the niaivety of young people coming into this trade.  I believe school's should be teaching some of these skills - along with financial nouse as well.  Teach students about employment contracts, wages, PAYE, superannuation etc so they have a basic understanding of their rights as workers.  I am not interested in exploiting my staff or my apprentices.  When I employ an apprentice I want them to be with my firm as a certifier - I don't expect my staff to put blood sweat and tears into training someone to give them away to another firm.  We have re-employed several guys that we trained as apprentices, that then did their OE and came back to NZ - why?  Becasue we know them, we know how they work, and we want them back as part of the company.  I'm no perfect employer, but like you have honed your craft and want to be the best tradesman around - I want people to feel valued, safe and treated fairly too - that is how you get the best of a staff member.  Treat them the same way you want to be treated.  I ensure my staff get everything they are entitled to, whether they know they are entitled to it or not - a happy staff member is a productive staff member.  Families are also very important - you need to go and see your kid's concert, meet their teacher etc - go - if you are a contributing staff member you will be paid for this too.

I do agree that there is a disproportionate amount of employers in this industry who take advantage of young people, and the ITO should be the gate keeper in all of this.  I too am active supporter of the PGDF - and an advocate of apprentices rights in that arena.  Apprentices are the future of the industry - they are the people who will one day buy our business off us.  All I wanted to do was point out that the argument wasn't one sided, there are apprentices who lead their employers a merry dance and frustrate the shit out of them.  It's not unlike bringing up a whole lot of teenagers.  I do admit that lately I have opted more for "mature" apprentices as they are less hard work on the personal front than young apprentices - but hey I needed a break from all the heartache.  I have noticed as the years have gone by that young people expect more for less effort and are very willing to blame everyone else for their problems rather than look at themselves. Mum features a lot - poor old Mum didn't wake them, didn't have their lunch ready, didn't drop their lunch off ...  They get there in the end though and 99% turn into great young men. 

Rodza you sound like a hardworking young plumber - and I am sure you will do very well in this industry.  I am sorry you had such an arsehole of an employer - and all i can hope is that if you ever have staff you will know what not to do.  I have met many a plumber from the Manawatu - and yes I understand old school - but it is always a two sided story. 

Offline robbo

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 05:34:05 PM »
Hi guys, Roza, you definitely have had a bad run; unfortunately it may be more widespread than you think. There are good companies out there but the construction industry is full of businesses that sail very close to the wind in the way that they run their organisations, consequently they are always looking for the cheapest deal, screwing tradesmen down is the usual way, (that is one reason that I will not work for house building companies). As far as apprentices are concerned they should not be exploited, if a company cannot afford to treat apprentices correctly and fairly they should not have them at all.  At the end of the day a company is only as good as it`s workers, if it pay`s peanuts it will almost certainly get monkeys who will not be able to do a good job then the company will lose credibility and eventually go out of business.  Good companies (and I have worked for some) will recognize quality work that stays done/good time keeping and a friendly persona,(I’m picking that Jax would be one of them) you do not necessarily have to be planet speed, that is a one-upmanship thing by usually young guys trying to prove themselves but a steady work ethic with no complaints from customers. Roza you need to decide if you will stay in the industry as a tradesman or make a move sideways in the industry which I would encourage anyone to do mainly for the reasons that you have highlighted, you do seem to have the intelligence to make the move so good luck on that score, that’s enough for now,cheers     

Offline Rodza1

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2012, 11:37:56 AM »
Hey Robbo, thanks for your comments. All feedback is welcome. Yeah I have had a bad run alright, ive been thinking about it over the past few days and I think one of the underpinning problems about the conditions ive been employed with in the past has been a lot about where I am situated in NZ. As there isnt a lot of choice of employers here in Wanganui that there are in bigger citys they kind of put you to the sword as an employee a bit and after a while you just start to think its the norm. I was pretty shocked when Jaxcat rattled off all the things to me they do for their employees, even the small things like a social club and a BBQ every now and then. Taking the time to set up and manage a social club too,or pay for a BBQ is by itself showing that its about hard work and good times....not just relentless hard work all the time. It promotes good mental health and a good enthusistic working enviroment that leads to increased productivity.

I dont know what other guys might think but its the little things an employer provides to make there place of work friendly and a learning enviroment  that count to me. At my former work place steel cap boots were not provided even,no PPE was. I raised this issue once (at Reg level) and was slammed completely and utterly and told I was wrong and he was right etc....if I dont like it theres the door etc, his name on the building etc...end of the day what can you do ay if your in the smaller areas, I needed my job, I needed the money, was nowhere else to go and just had to get on with it etc.

In a bigger city if you were getting a rough time in all departments from an employer most would up and leave so what im saying is as that it could be simply down to the fact that there is more competition in the bigger citys thus promoting better fair treatment, as there is more competition to retain staff.

Where Im from in Wanganui, there are few new job opportunitys and a heap of solo self employed guys so when you are with a certain company especially in these economic times its hard to change jobs as no one really is taking on staff around here, so more or less your stuck. I was a classic example, I was most unhappy at my job for about a year before I actually decided I needed to get away from there new job or not, loved the work but the boss had a poor attitude too often unfortunately. Believe it or not though he was a fantastic tradesman, probably the most on to it ive met yet, the problem was though he rules his guys with an iron fist in every area of employment.

Perhaps a move away from these smaller employer dominated areas is my solution. Ive never asked for the gold card treatment, just a fair go. I'm sure the older generation tradesman here in Wanganui wouldnt have a problem with that as they always complain about young guys coming up and taking there work(small town mentality)....ive been here in this town working for two different companies since 2005...time to get over yourselves guys.

Offline roberto

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 01:39:22 PM »
wow, there are some good yarns on here then....

as a young plumber I was always expected to know how to do plumbing straight away, i recieved comments like "uh if you dont know how to do that, your behind!!!" when his plumbers had me working away (without training) and he didnt really care what I knew or not, he just expected perfection, because hes got that "im the best plumber ever!!!" attitude.

Hell, I was told I was "too slow" after 6 months, WTF!!!


I just wish that the ito could inforce a kind of law to employers and say "right, when your aprientice comes here at the end of the year, we are going to test him on this, this and this, so you need to teach him about it by then"

that could be a bit of a pain to some employers who are busy on other work i guess,

yes, there are some GOOD employers, and I have heard of them, and hopefully I will work for one,

I hope to be one of those employers (one day) who takes time to train aprentices well and not like crap.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: apprientices treated like slaves.......
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 03:16:15 PM »
Roberto - what the ITO need to do is more than that, they need to be the gatekeepers and check on an employer before they are allowed to train and employ an apprentice.  Many years ago when we first started employing apprentices we got visited and had to show that we were worthy of being allowed to employ apprentices.  This wasn't just a one off either - probably for the next three or four after that we also got visited - and had to jump through hoops to show we were ok and would do a good job with training and employing these young people.  Sadly all you have to do today is either fill in the paperwork and write out a cheque, or in some cases just fill in the paperwork.  There does need to be vetting of employers and there does need to be some sort of forum where apprentices can ask questions without the risk of getting slapped down for it.  The roving staff from the ITo should be able to do this for you, but again often there answer is "I don't know".    For legal employement issues you can go to the Department of Labour website and they have a huge data base of frequently asked questions (I use it myself as an employer sometimes when I am not 100% sure of something."    I am dismayed beyond belief when I read some of the stories on here about how apprentices have been treated.  It's one thing to be hard and fair, and quite another to be hard and acting illegally or badly.
 The best way to find out about a potential employer is to ask around locally, visit websites like nocowboys.co.nz or builderscrack and see what customers are saying.  Continued bad customer ratings might hold some clues to what sort of person they are - but people who have worked there will have the best idea.


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