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Poll

Should registration and craftsman exams be held by the training institutes or the PGDB?

Training institutes
22 (46.8%)
PGDB
14 (29.8%)
Only Craftman exams by the PGDB
2 (4.3%)
Craftsman status should not exist.
9 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!  (Read 31171 times)

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Offline robbo

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2010, 04:05:43 PM »
Hi Richard, your predicament is an extreme example of what every tradesman will face with the oncoming changes by the board, add the cost of courses and you will need a huge increase in wages to survive. Write to the board outlining your problem and suggest possible solutions and ask for their guidance. If you can convince them that they will become more powerful and wealthy by a slight change or two, they would probably be sympathetic to your concerns, if not join the rest of us and wait for the whole system to collapse. 

Offline Rodza1

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 09:43:08 AM »
hey richard, nice posts man.

I know how u feel,thats alot of risky driving in your own time for such a small gain.does your employer pay for the cbl courses you've had to drive to???Mine doesn't

I hate to say it but with the board at the helm things are going to worsen for us for quite some time untill there whole regime eventually comes under media scrutiny again so might as well get use to it and all that. License costs will probably increase another two times in the next five years and if the current fee review goes ahead with this $1500 first time rego BS it will choke the system of new blood coming through with their extreme price hikes driving young people away to other trades. The "board can consult all they like but untill they have lived it they will never understand.It angers me being powerless while they rape our industry again and again while we stand by idle watching.......
The Plumbers Gasfitters And Drainlayers Board- "White Collar Mafia"

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2010, 09:52:54 AM »
Richard and Rodza - I hope that you are putting your opinions to paper and writing to the Minister of Building and Housing Maurice Williamson.  This industry is well renowned for moaning into its beer and talking amongst ourselves - and while this is helpful to galvanise your opinions, you then need to take the next step and make your opinions heard with the politicians.  I think it a shame that employers and employees can't work together on the CBL issues - in our firm we pay the fees for the course and I expect staff to give up their own time.  If there is a particularly good course that will benefit the company then we will do it in work time.  Remember though that your employer needs to make a profit so you still have a job and he/she will have been hit by ACC levy increases, registration increases for vehicles, petrol price rises and perhaps wage increases and CBL costs - all at a time when you can't really raise your hourly rates to customers.  Apprentices are particularly disadvantaged over the potential fee increases and as an industry we MUST stand up for them.  If the costs go as outlined in the consultation document I do not believe there will be many trainees going on to licensed status as they simply won't be able to afford it.  Try and talk to you employer about a split in the costs for CBL - it benefits everyone to have currently licensed people who are up to the play with the latest information.  Be choosey about the courses you attend (some are simply bad) and get them early in the licensing year so you aren't panicking come 31 March. 
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline jd24hrs

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2010, 12:26:33 AM »
hi guys
i would just say that just because you are a craftsman /or certifying thingybob it doesn't mean you are any good, some of the best plumbers are the ones who been doing it for years and weren't just given a ticket to make money by some incompetent pgdb run by a legal bod who couldn't fix a tap even if she tried, and by the way she and people like her are the ones who to undermine plumbers and there skills and that is why we are poorly paid in NZ compared with every other country in the world  WE LET OURSELVES DOWN BY ACCEPTING THIS CRAP AND ALLOWING OURSELVES TO BE UNDERVALUED  stand up for yourselves plumbers

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2010, 06:33:15 PM »
JD Craftsman/Certifying status is a benchmark.  There are a lot of people who may have the skills but do not have the ticket, but I don't want to see a system where people don't have to have a ticket in this trade.   We are wanting to have a protected industry.  I don't agree with the new fee regime that the PGDB have bought in, but I don't disagree with everything they do.  We do need to have regulation and rules in our industries.  Throwing out the baby with the bath water won't solve problems either.  And in some cases the PGDB are simply enacting the legislation - the person to direct correspondence is the Minister of Buildings Maurice Williamson.  He and his Department are the power behind the throne.  A multi pronged attack is required, but just throwing insults around generally won't do anything except make us look like a bunch of inbred idiots.  Reasoning is what is required.

Offline Thunderhead

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2010, 07:29:07 PM »
Yup make your self herd...i have already e-mailed john key and the PGDB about my displeasure and now i know where to send it i will write to this minister of building and housing...in this country things ONLY get done after enough noise has been made.

I think the 4 year apprentiship should involve more intensive block course training and industry approved across the bord training material!...after starting mine at wintech at hamiliton then moving it up to unitech at auckland...i thought even though the wintec material was very simple in form it was easy to understand and assimilate the important info presented in there booklets and i completed ALL of the booklets given to me...after moving to auckland unitech...and being forced into there STUPID online learning modules i completed NONE of my modules...ALL of the other apprentises complained about this style of learning...if you have a book with you it is so quick and easy to flick through the pages and refernce material...with online you had to page up/ page down/open new windows/close windows..re log in cos it took you 5:01min to read that page etc etc WHAT A COMPLETE F***UP!!!...I fought long and hard with them to see common scense and even offered to pay for the bloody books myself...finally in my last year we are offered the books at $80 but at a disadvantage...only black and white print(with pictuer capions desinged for coloured print),Eg you will see the buff yellow gas pipe and the forest green water pipe..lol.gotta shake my head in dismay!...they are offering insuperrior study material if one dosnt have a computer(im a simple $13ph traniee not a friken money pot guys!)...if i had to do it again i would stick with wintech as i got a much more simple learning of the practise and rules...at unitech they over complicate things! on my  last block course the black iron threading machine was broken and all we got as an excuse was the other block course students broke it...we all said well it wasnt me and ive paid my course fees so where the hell is the repair man to fix the machine as we only have a limited time to complete all tasks...machine is still not fixed...apalling,And they seem to once every year book in our course so it falls on a public holiday but they always schedule classes for the bloody public holiday meaning in 4 years i will miss ONE WEEK of essential block course learning! lack of material even basic things like crox nuts..88 elbows...AND they expect us to do fine craftsman work when we dont even have top notch equipment and full workshops to do top workmanship UNREALISTIC...When i go to tech i want to be taught from the book not have one tutor say do it like this then next peroid another say no hes wrong do it like this...WTF they are masters at how to confuse people!...when we were doing roof flashings i got so sick of it i asked our tutor if there was a govt book on flashings he said yes ..i said then why the heck dont you do conformty teaching and teach us from the govt accepted method!!! cus i already have a boss directing me HOW TO DO IT! if i ever have an apprentiship it he will go to the wintech!.

i think it should be a 4 year intensive night school/block course and at the end walk out FULLY qualified...Im 36 so of course 4yrs+2 following years is too long for me to reach full qual...jd is correct the piece of paper means squat...the measure of  good trades person is his/her ability to problem solve and the quality of his/her workmanship.

Yes there are alot of issues out there in the whole trade but we just have to keep on keeping on, and keep pushing for change for the future of our industry...

Offline jd24hrs

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 07:45:45 PM »
hi the board is making it easier for craftsmen to send out unqualified trainees while they charge out at full price
which of course has been happening all along, but the board new this but choose to ignore because as long as they get paid who cares they can have there party's on us plumbers

p,s they have been sending out there gestapo plumbers police in the taupo area recently, kern needs a new car and hazel needs fat cat wages $2 dollars is far to expensive    JD keep fighting you plumbers

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 02:07:21 PM »
Hi JD - what are they actually doing in Taupo?  Asking to see practising licences?

Offline robbo

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2010, 03:52:45 PM »
hi guys anyone interested in a Plumb job?
Chief Executive
   Full time, Permanent
   Fri, 06 Aug
   
• Transformational leader
• Building organisational capability
The Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board is committed to the promotion of high standards of work and the protection of public health and safety and property. This is achieved through the registration, authorisation and licensing of competent plumbers, gasfitters and drainlayers.
The Board is looking for a Chief Executive to build, drive and inspire the organisation. You could come from a variety of sector backgrounds but must bring a proven track record of successful senior executive leadership.
We are seeking a pragmatic hands-on leader who will deliver a highly successful organisation. Along with being an excellent people leader, you will need to demonstrate experience in having built robust organisational structures that support the regulator who must focus on legislation and administrative law disciplines. The CEO will be expected to take a leading role in building strong stakeholder relationships.
An understanding of governance and reporting to a Board would be beneficial.
For the position description go to "Apply through Advertiser's Website". For further information contact Darryl Templeman or David Hollander on (04) 931 9444.
Only people with the right to work in New Zealand may apply for this position. For advice on obtaining a New Zealand work or residence visa visit: immigration.govt.nz

Offline Wal

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2010, 08:33:50 AM »
Hi everyone

Is anyone alive out there?  I've been watching the forum and its gone a bit quiet. Remember you can put good things in here as well as bad.

The Boards has gone quiet as well.  I think everyones in a holding pattern waiting for things to happen.  I'm waiting on complaints to be addressed by the Regulation Review Committee and other government departments. Others are waiting for their complaints to be addressed as well. We are in the process of forming a society to help us now and in the future.  I think most of the Board are waiting for the 10th and 18th September when their contracts end and no doubt the Minister is waiting for the end of the month when he announces his new Board.

He will be having a big party because as we all know every time we get a new Board everthing is alright and the industry is on the right track.  The tradespeople will be submissive and will do exactly what they are told and will pay more of their money to the Boards accumulated fund.

Just a bit of sarcasm to get you guys going again.

Wal


 

Offline catster

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2010, 05:08:47 PM »
I take issue with the ITO being the "rogues".  The rogues are and always have been the PGDB.  The 1st, 2nd etc qual system should obviously be re-introduced rather than a random exam set by a group of people at PGDB who are barely literate.

The whole scenario is a national disgrace and apprentices are the major victims.

Offline martinkelly

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2010, 11:00:31 PM »
The exam should be set by the PGDB now the past answers have been released it can't be that hard to pass, past questions amount to about 25% and another 25% reworded.
If the polytecs were running the testing everyone would pass as they were responsible for training them.

CPD points should only be required every two years to keep costs down and three licences should cost the same as two.
 
The PGDB should not take non registered people to court this should be done by the police thus saving us in disciplinary fees.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2010, 03:18:41 PM »
My understanding of supervision is this:

Trainees - must be under DIRECt supervision the first 12 months - that is in the eyesight and earshot of a certifier
Exemption holders - must be under DIRECT supervision for the first 24 months - that is in the eyesight and earshot of a certifier
After this timeframe the certifier must supervise - e.g. give full instructions as to how the job should be done - at our company we never have exemption holders or trainees working on their own anyway, but licensed people are given survey sheets that have been filled in by a certifier that have pipe sizing, diagrams etc.  In this way we could provide paper documentation if ever required to as part of an audit by the PGDB.  All gas installations have a copy of the check sheet from 5261 (Apprendix 0) attached to the certificate.

I don't believe they have softened on their stance at all.  However it will be interesting to see how it is policed and what the consequences of not following this will be. 

Offline peasea

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2010, 05:03:25 PM »
There is a number of people out there who are exempt workers ie have no formal qualifications running their own businesses , some obviously are able to get exemption licenses,  because someone has agreed to supervise them , I dont know what the boards view is on this but would surprised if they are happy about it , I wonder what the insurance arrangments are  , I would suggest if an insurance company is aware that an exempt person is running a plumbing / drainlaying or gasfitting business they would run a mile if there is a claim , the responsibility then would come back to the supervisor , they most probably also will not be covered unless they have advised the company of the arrangment and payed a premium accordingly .

what do other practitioners think of the above scenario ? also what are your views on certifiers agreeing to supervise licenced people running their own businesses , I believe it is becoming quite common in my area , if you have worked hard to get your full license is it right that these people are able to operate their own business on someone elses hardwork and sacrifice ? or am I being a bit pedantic , I know I wont agree to supervise anyone unless they are in my direct employ , with the old permit system you were able to  have control of a job you agreed to some one carrying out under your license , but with this supervision system you have no control as to what is being done yet you are fully responsible .Lets hear some views   

Offline Fordy

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Re: Have a say. The PGDB needs to know!
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2010, 12:53:06 PM »
Yup - I know of a plumbing/gasfitting firm in the Waikato who certify gas installs carried out by another "plumbing firm" (no formal qualifications - I see they are still advertising for a craftsman plumber on Trademe) in a different town - cost $100 per cert - no questions asked - nothing inspected - kinda makes a mockery of the whole thing. I wonder what happens at audit time?

I don't think you are being pedantic - I sure as hell wouldn't certify someone else's even another plumber - unless he was employed by me - I mean how would you know what was done and whether it was done to code unless you supervised the job yourself and observed the job in various stages? Kinda scary - certifying someone elses work



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