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Author Topic: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater  (Read 20424 times)

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Offline robbo

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2013, 10:57:43 AM »
hi guys/Badger don`t worry we can read it perfectly, try this one,cheers:-
...
 Good example of a Brain Study: If you can read this OUT LOUD you have a strong mind. And better than that: Alzheimer's is a long, long, ways down the road before it ever gets anywhere near you.
7H15 M3554G3 53RV35 7O PR0V3 H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5! 1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5! 1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG 17 WA5 H4RD BU7 N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3 Y0UR M1ND 1S R34D1NG 17 4U70M471C4LLY W17H 0U7 3V3N 7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17, B3 PROUD! 0NLY C3R741N P30PL3 C4N R3AD 7H15. PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F  U C4N R34D 7H15.

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2013, 11:28:57 AM »
Hahaha that's how I f****ing spell.....cheers Robbo, I can read that better than normal writing lol,

Might ask the Board to translate a copy of the regs into that for me...made my Saturday mate, cheers buddy
You can't choose who you are.....but you are the sum of your choices.......

Offline robbo

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2013, 11:40:04 AM »
hi guys/badger, now that you have mastered that one try this, it may be worth points for deciphering the gas regs,cheers
...
 If you can raed this, you have a sgtrane mnid, too.
Can you raed this? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can
be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2013, 12:02:00 PM »
That's crystal mate, haha...can I get an app that does that for me automatically.... ;)

The thing is.... like all languages, if you don't speak it fluently you can't truly understand it or any meaning contained therein.....we all can, with a slight grasp of " legalise" which is based in English.... well we can read it all, but sometimes the meaning/intention is misunderstood......

I find it ironic that our regs are written by lawyers in legalise.....for tradesman to decipher and reference......who, if they misread/misinterpret it.... end up in court at the mercy of.....you guessed it.....lawyers!

And the Board won't give you an opinion or translation.....until you make a mistake, then you can't stop them telling you what its all about, feck they'll even bend the interpretation to suit themselves......

Set up to fail....and we pay for it too.

Remember the bollox about having to put markers through your copy of regs for the bi-annual audits....to prove you had read it!, how about a f****ing index, set up alphabetically.....so if you want to know about vents....look under V....FFS its a reference book.....

IT SHOULD BE WRITTEN IN PLAIN ENGLISH, WITH PLAIN CAN/CAN NOT DO INSTRUCTIONS, if you need a translation for a reference book.....well its been badly written.

How many tradies do you know who speak legalise.....we are practical people, who need practical instructions....its as easy as that.

Offline robbo

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2013, 12:48:01 PM »
Hi guys/Badger, I agree totally it`s the exact understanding that is needed which is not always easy if the writer has not explained in a fully understandable way.
Perhaps this explanation` rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe.` could be used as a defence in case of prosecution`   
  Also I totally agree about the `Index` for the regs book, I remember on an audit occasion trying to find the section that had answer to the question asked, takes time which you don`t have,cheers

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2013, 01:00:46 PM »
Its a reference book, not the f****ing Da Vinchy Code .....If your real intention is to protect the public's health and safety.....you would write it plain and simple, but....

If your intention is to protect your little empire, then you would place minefields all around you.....

I KNOW that the Board protect some and then screw over others....ignoring bad, real bad "gasfitters", then screwing over very good gasfitters (not talking about me either), I know this.

Where is that going to lead?

It will make the incompetent ones, who have the connections, more brazen, and then if they take out their competition (who if they could out do them by fair business and quality of work, they would be no competition in the first place)....where will it lead?

Face it guys our careers and sources of income is being/has been hijacked by corrupt, bureaucratic leeches, who are willing to put the public in jeopardy to further their agenda , fact.

Offline bowtieboy

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2013, 08:33:44 PM »
foggy said....Does this mean that anyone who has failed an audit on this matter will be reimbursed for time and costs?... :(

so, ....do all the gas fitters who have had to alter thier installations going to be compensated?? i bet not!!! this just makes me pist off..
i dont take kindly to someone making me do something, which was against my own common sense, as i consider myself competent,then to find out that THEY where wrong!!!!
this bs has to stop!
pgdb are wasting OUR time and OUR money.
i am VERY dissapointeed in the staff at pgdb for NOT using THEIR brains, like we do! >:(
I believe in doing a job once and right. !

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2013, 07:37:12 AM »
It is ironic that those at the PGDB who have been proven to be incompetent don't have to do any CPD......

Ironic that the ones most in need of CPD......tell everyone else they need CPD. Contradictory Professional Development, ;).

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2013, 08:05:29 AM »
Just noticed the post on this thread with the amendments, making the 1500mm clearances to a window 500mm.....I am just wondering what year did the laws of physics change? should we let the scientific community know?

I mean if the regs say it, it is law.....and fact?

Have a look inside the NZ5261 cover and look who wrote it....very informative....

We can all read a diagram and use a tape measure......so please write it in plain English.

The only thing they had on me was the use of an alternative to the NON mandatory part two of NZ 5261, ironically for the only 1500mm measurement that they didn't make 500mm :o.....make it compulsory if it is in fact compulsory.... stop ruining lives just for your own agenda and ego massage.....

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2013, 08:18:20 AM »
My measurement was 540mm.....the rinnai document allowed for 500mm and the british Standard allowed for 300mm.......this is the only thing they had on me........Bickers, who saw all the withheld evidence and bullshit that went on.....and runs a course called "the role of the professional witness"...... went public in a press release with.....



Board chairman Alan Bickers said in a statement last night the board was concerned by Mr Gee's apparent lack of knowledge and appreciation of the applicable regulatory provisions for gasfitting.

"While the board understands that the disciplinary process can be stressful for parties, Mr Gee's evidence at the hearing raised serious concerns about his understanding of some fundamental aspects of the gasfitting trade."


What a sanctimonious twat....

Offline robbo

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2013, 08:35:44 AM »
hi guys/Badger, (I mean if the regs say it, it is law.....and fact?) it was a guess by someone who did not do a scientific analysis,(My measurement was 540mm,the rinnai document allowed for 500mm and the british Standard allowed for 300mm,this is the only thing they had on me) then you were correct, how did you let them nail you on it? cheers

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2013, 09:43:55 AM »
Mate I didn't let them, the Board's steamroller of a system is totally out of your control and the system is corrupt.....I am amazed we did so well, not because of any fault in my work (I think through out this bullshit my work has been shown to be very good), but because how uneven the process is, hats off to my good mate Wal....big time.

Out of the 44 charges this one, that's ONE, was the one I thought I had the ability to answer the best, because I knew it was safe and the customer said it was safe and I had documents.....so didn't put as much effort/research into it, and then with then the only other charge found to be "of substance" was for signing this job off. The only two out of forty f****ing four charges!!!! and Bickers says I am not good at my job!!!

I didn't bring up the British Standard at the hearing because I have been shot down many many times, too many times, by people for beginning a sentence with "in the UK...", especially by those in positions of power....I had even been threatened for saying just that. And given the only certifying gasfitter present was British, with a long history in his family of being in the trade in the UK, thought that what I had said was enough, I drew diagrams, made statements.....but they don't tell you until weeks later what their "findings" are. Look up Graham Hardie's "info brief", issued by the Board, when he joined the Board....ask your self should he have known about this british standard..... ::)


I didn't let them mate.....when I found out, months later, I paid $5000.00 to take it to high court to appeal (you can't tell them either way in their own kangaroo court).....by now we had already lost a lot and could ill afford that 5 grand, but did it on principle. I WAS mortgage free, now I have a 50% mortgage...all for something I spent 6 years trying to warn about before it happened.

The Board were allowed to adduce (add evidence after my hearing) that they should be given more weight to their opinion as they were made up of learned professionals and were "THE" Board.....this was allowed....

I tried to adduce the British Standard, but they stuck to the rules on that one....you are not allowed to adduce for the appeal (unless you are the Board apparently). I even had a letter from the Dept of Building and Housing, written by someone that appears inside the cover of NZ5261 as a co-author of NZ5261....saying I could use a alternative standard if it was relevant.....this British Standard specifically referred to a power flue and an opening window directly above that powered flue, you can't get more relevant. But I wasn't allowed to adduce either.

So I got wrapped up in legal loop holes and legalise by lawyers, and totally let down by a fellow British Gasfitter and fellow Master Plumber.

This is one of my main bones of contention....I lost on a legal ruling NOT SAFETY OR PERFORMANCE OR ANY PRACTICAL PERFORMANCE BASED "IN REALITY" , BUT ON THE LEGAL "OPINION" of a lawyer, being paid a lot of money by the Board to win....so the laws of physic's are different in NZ  from the UK.....I know the water goes down the plug whole a different way........but that is BECAUSE of the laws of physics, not contrary to them. Hot air/fumes rise any where on this planet....unless your on the moon.

So the expert professional Board (with the only certifying gasfitter being British) didn't know about the British Standard (is that my short coming or the Board's?), and I wasn't allowed to adduce anything, even though the Judge had read all that I was trying to adduce!!!!!!!!, basically we got shut down....and it cost me $5000.00, would have been 4 to 5 times that if I had used a lawyer....but Wal came to my aid and helped me, as he did at the kangaroo court......HE DID THIS FOR NOTHING. If it wasn't for Wal.....well lets just say, my lawyer who cost 1000's and 1000's of dollars told me to plead guilty to everything!!!!! but I got a 95% innocence result.


Of note the lawyer for the Board tried to say we couldn't even appeal, there is heaps more but I am keeping that stuff to my self until the inquiry.



Look at the fiasco with the classifications for gas work now.......written by lawyers in lawyers speak.....for you to decipher and then explain to a lawyer at a hearing with your way of life and reputation on the line.....good luck with that......

Telling you now guys...... get up off your comfy seats now and do something....or they will pick you off one by one.....until only the people who are spewing this bullshit are left.....where you will either work for them or do something else, or try to work under the radar.....

Tell me....Why has a really good career, a great career for practical/physical/switched on people who don't want to work in an office, loving the freedom of "the van".........why has it got so f****ing complicated and bloody expensive?? I know why..... I have met them.......and they are corrupt and open to cronyism......

I know you read this site......where's my fancy lawyers letter threatening me with a slander suit......thing is it ain't slander if it is based in truth.....pack of dodgy bastards.....

Offline Badger

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2013, 09:57:28 AM »
Basically the rules only apply to you.....they will change the rules at will......even the minister is now trying to change a law to make the illegal ....legal.

It is a slanted playing field, peppered with mines, with their ref and rules.....rules which they change/ignore to suit them or their mates....

I am amazed that me and Wal did so well, with everything, and I mean everything stacked against us.

And I am, to the point of being accused of being paranoid, a stickler for the regs......and I got a 95% innocence finding but was still publically slated by Bickers in my local paper.

Offline bowtieboy

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2013, 07:50:49 PM »
Does anyone know when the amendment's to nzs5601 will be legal to apply? or do we just keep putting lpg regulators 3m away from instantaneous power flued water heaters. ? :( :( :( ::)

Offline NZMoose

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Re: clearances from a external instantaneous water heater
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2013, 07:41:39 PM »
Hi,

Sorry to restart an old debate, but actually the answer to this depends on the gas type.

In a bottled LPG installation, the regulator is install by a gasfitter under NZS5601.1, which requires a clearance of 3m from a mechanical air inlet. (Board is correct here.)

In a reticulated NG or LPG installation, the regulator and it's vent is NOT installed by a gasfitter.  It is installed under NZS5258, which gives 2 zones of clearance around the GMS.  A instantaneous water heater can be installed in zone 2, but not zone 1.  Zone 1 is defined as 800mm either side of the service riser.  Therefore, if the gasfitter installs his Infinity at the 1m clearance given in table 6.2 NZS5601.1 it does comply.  The regulator vent is not considered as gasfitting, therefore the 3m clearance is not required.

Thanks


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