Author Topic: help with filling in gas cert/compliance forms (Read 3995 times)

Rodza1 · « **on:** April 25, 2014, 08:14:39 PM »

Hi all,

recently passed my certifying gas exam and paid register fees etc. all ready to fill out forms for gas saafety cert and gas compliance cert. I have public liability insurance set up already and plan to register on ess database for high risk work.

can anyone give me some pointers with the forms so i am doing it right? for someone that hasnt signed jobs off before its not very clear to follow for a first timer. ive looked at the dual GSC & GCC federation form and so far thats all. will probably make my own one down the track.

one part for a gsc asks if the work has or has not relied on any manufacturers instructions.....I thought all installations relied on following the instructions? wouldnt saying that your install does not rely on manufactureres instructions mean it is unsafe or uncompliant?

Also what are we suppose to put in the box for a gsc describing and location of the gasfitting? A sentance describing what weve done?
is that satisfactory?

For the gas compliance cert it asks if the work has or has not been done in accordance with a certified design. What exactly is classified as a certified design? The design that the certifying gasfitter came up with to do the job? there is a small note at the bottom asking to attach certified design certificate if applicable which has got me wondering.

also asks if the gas compliance certificate relates to a whole or part installation. i thought when issuing a certificate you became liable for the entire installation anyway?

I usually just install new appliances into existing installations so all falls under the high risk classification? seems stupid to me but thats nz i guess. simple made difficult.

It asks for a design sketch also. Are we suppose to sketch just what we have done or sketch the entire installation since we are liable for the entire property? im thinking just what appliance and pipework i would have added but thought i should ask. kind of hard to see in walls and where pipes go that others may have done.

appreciate your feedback, alot of questions but i want to get it right from the start and not find out down the track im doing it wrong

thanks

Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/gas-certification/71/help-with-filling-in-gas-certcompliance-forms/1667/

Badger · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2014, 11:38:03 AM »

Just ring the Board and ask them.......oh wait there......

Thing is, we are all as lost as you on this.....they don't want us to know, it makes it easier to screw us over AFTER something comes up. That's why it so complicated.

The hearse at the bottom of the cliff........

If I knew I would love to help mate.

Rodza1 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2014, 06:22:20 PM »

Yeah I know what you are saying badge,

I have thought about not doing gas but I can't afford not to do gas really, it adds a valuable arm to my business but in saying that I know I will be audited eventually and don't want to go through what you and your family went through if I can avoid it by covering myself to the best of my ability.

I guess doing this type of work one has to accept some level of calculated risk. Risk of being targeted for "special treatment" down the track.

If anyone out there just has "opinions" on there interpretations of the certificates which may or may not be correct i'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has something to add. Any information to make a more informed decision is better than no information at all.

Cheers $:-\$

Jaxcat · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2014, 07:09:32 PM »

Rodza

If you are mostly doing "additions" i.e. new appliances into existing houses then it will all be high risk. You are only certifying PART of the installation i.e. the part you put in - and your overriding obligation is to ensure that nothing you do makes anything else unsafe. You need to do a COC for these, or else a combined COC GSC which is what our firm is doing for all of these sort of installations. Better safe then sorry.

You need to put the name and address at the start.

In the description be VERY clear about exactly what you have done. eg. Installed new Rinnai Infinity 24 LPG outside kitchen, with replacement LPG kit near corner of house and ran 20mm copper, surface mounted to position of new unit. Tested at 7 kPa - nil drop. Rinnai Infinity Serial Number is SN 13.11-xxxxxxx)

or
Install owner supplied Smeg gas hob. Ran new gas line 14 metres to join existing gas line on south side of house. Upsized gas main to 25mm. Tested at 4.5 kPa - nil drop.

Certified design - tick no unless you are following a design by someone like Becca Carter engineers etc, where you have been given a plan that you have to follow - in most cases for domestic this won't be the case.

The work does rely on manufacturer's instructions so in the two examples above (example 1 - Yes www.rinnai.co.nz example 2 - yes www.smeg.co.nz

Yes to AS/NZS5601.1 sections 3 to 6 or 5601.2 sections 3 to 9 (but mostly Section 1 I would think)
Are there any other standards for compliance - not usually in this instance

Next section is for an addition - is PART - and then describe the work you did

e.g. new Smeg hob (inset model number), 25mm gas main and new line to hob
e.g. Replacement LPG Kit in same position as existing was, and then new 20mm copper line out to Rinnai Infinity

Dates etc are self explanatory

PM me your email and I will send you a presentation that ESS did for a group of gasfitters in the Wellington region recently - it gives good examples.

When you go on line to file the High Risk they ask for slightly different information.

We are taking photos of the installations we do and attaching them to our records and also a sketch showing the pipe run, the size and type of pipe and the appliances installed by us.

ESS are primarily interested in safety, the Board will be using these certs no doubt as part of their audit.

Just describe what you do, ensure pipesizing is as per manufacturer's instructions etc and you follow 5601 and you can't go wrong.

We are charging $140 incl of GST for the GSC/COC combined.

bowtieboy · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2014, 07:52:42 AM »

good advise Jaxcat

i in addition draw elevations and plan views of each appliances locations, showing clearances and ventilation ie, room volume and show window/ door/vent locations.

Also make clear where your work starts and stops, i have had 2 jobs recently that i have piped to under floor boilers that another party has installed, and they commission/ cert.... i make it clear on my coc/gsc and my records where i stopped.

rodza, just watch out for none compliant appliances, we have come a crossed lots, you can check on ess if a appilance complies.

regards

Rodza1 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2014, 08:41:01 AM »

Hi Jax/Bowtieboy

Thats great advice from you both, many thanks.

I figured instead of fumbling my way through it id be better to seek advice to ensure I 100% understand what I am actually stating on my own certificates and all bases are covered to some degree. I don't want any problems down the road if I can help it. Its definitely a better safe than sorry kind of industry. I'm already taking photos but will back it up with a pipework description of exactly what I have done including ventilation,room volume, clearances also. Why not, it could save me a day in court one day. After some of the horror stories ive read on the forum I want to best protect myself at all costs. Especially in situations where others do work on a property after I have and there is an argument/court battle over who did what.

Also thanks Jax for the worked examples, very easy for anyone to follow, I will take you up on your offer for the ESS info.
Knowledge is power.

Cheers

Jaxcat · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2014, 07:09:43 PM »

I'll try and put up the presentation for anyone who is interested. The Federation organised the meeting in Wellington with ESS and it was well attended (nearly 50 gasfitters) which shows that people really do want to know how this thing is meant to work. There certainly were lots of questions. If you live in an area where there are gasfitters you might light to organise a meeting just for them where they can discuss just gas issues. We have decided to meet three times a year - sometimes with guest speakers on gas issues, and sometimes just amongst ourselves to kick around what is happening in the industry. For the group in Wellington - a couple of things were decided 1. if we all did it the same way there was strength in numbers 2. if anyone had a problem with the PGDB we would help each other out with information and research

Of course it will depend on how collegial the geographic area you live in is. Although we are all competitors here in Wellington - there was still a great deal of goodwill about backing each other up.

The meeting itself started off just inviting gasfitters we knew, inviting them to ask any gasfitters they knew (Fed members, MP members and guys or girls not belonging to either group) - we also extended it to office staff if they were involved in the cert process (and a couple came). We just asked for RSVP's so we had enough chairs organised. Try local merchants for a place to meet, or a supplier that has a gas affiliation as some ideas. A local pub might also work - although their will be other temptations!

If you are feeling a bit isolated - try it in your area - it could be come the foundation of a Federation "Chapter" - and open it to all comers - after all - the common ground is "gas".

Badger · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2014, 06:08:44 AM »

The presentation would be cool please Jax.

Its awesome how we can help each other like this, and it is definitely safety in numbers.

Jaxcat · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2014, 09:44:08 AM »

Here it is - it is done in power point - so I hope everyone can open it. There is a bit at the beginning about Worksafe NZ the new government agency - as this is something ESS are undertaking as well. Nothing really new in here, but hopefully explained a little better. I think this forum is excellent for asking questions and getting answers from a group of people - it has to be good.

Badger · « **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2014, 05:16:30 PM »

, cheers Jax

Rodza1 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2014, 07:50:14 AM »

Yes once again thanks for all the assistance everyone, it is great to be able to have some form of support with the recent changes. This forum is ground breaking in that regard.

I like the idea of having local meetings to help spread the word about how these documents need to be done as well as learning about other industry changes. Even though im new in business in my area I will ask around and see if any other guys have similar questions that I do. The ones I have spoken to were unsure a little themselves, at least enough to not want to give out solid advice.

robbo · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2014, 08:30:21 AM »

hi guys, i second all the posts on this subject. It is my opinion that the Federation and this forum is what will save our industry the, official Board is not a help in any way it is only a hindrance,cheers

Jaxcat · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2014, 07:06:55 PM »

Rodza - I think the secret to getting everyone together is that it is about sharing opinions - we are all experts in our own field, but the whole unease around gas has made good experienced tradespeople second guess themselves. If you get a group together and they understand the primary reason is to share information - so that everyone comes out better informed - then it is true "upskilling". I guess we all hesitate to give advice in case its wrong and it comes back and bites you in the arse, but I think if everyone gets together and works through it then the outcome will be everyone will have learned something and will feel more confident and safer writing out the certificates. Bottom line is there pretty much isn't anything you do that doesn't require certifying either by a COC or a GSC. As someone said - if you are using anything more than a duster or a vacuum cleaner on the job you need a Cert. Most people seem to be using the COC's off the ESS Website, or the combined Federation one. I don't know anyone that has designed their own - and if you do there are clear legal requirements about what it has to contain.

Chapter meetings are a great idea - and the bonus is it won't stop there - we've seen gasfitters ringing each other up since the meetings, tossing queries around, passing work around - it's all good! And what's better is it's FREE to you! If you put a sign up in the merchants with a place and time I'll bet you get a few guys together. The Federation would be pleased to hear any feedback - it is something we'd love to see around the country.

wombles · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2014, 07:36:37 PM »

I was reading an article the other day about the need to attach a label to the pipe naming the pipe and manufacturer. Did anyone else see this? Can you direct me to the article?

Jaxcat · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2014, 10:26:37 PM »

Can't recall the article, but we are doing this - labels retail at $25 each and our buy price is $12.20 + GST. I think it will be cheaper to make our own. it gets attached to the gas meter from recollection. I'll try and scan one tomorrow and upload it so you can see what it looks like.

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Author Topic: help with filling in gas cert/compliance forms (Read 3995 times)

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