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Author Topic: Gas Fitting Certification  (Read 31514 times)

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Offline aboutgas

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2013, 11:08:16 PM »
Hi guys this is the federation one it covers both Gas Safety and Gas Compliance


Hope this helps
Unless the moral improves the floggings will continue

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2013, 09:11:01 AM »
So we are all agreed then, the only person this saves cost to, (with a total hand washing/shirking of responsibility), is the people who thought this up, with more cost and ultimate/total accountability on us...... and with ultimately more cost to the customer.

It is hard enough to get people to service their appliances now, in my area a "service" is what I would call a breakdown...because they only ring to get it going again, not to clean it and make sure its safe.

Just a question....isn't "the powers that be" meant to be responsible/accountable with a reasonable cost to run this situation.....because I was under the impression that was why they were there.....

Have they told the public about this cost and THAT WE HAVE TO ADD THIS COST.....or are they waiting for us to inform people when we go to their home........I don't know about you but I am fed up of the "how much it costs to be a tradesman" talk to customers to justify our bills.....everyone thinks I am loaded.....and when you are on the bones of your arse its quite frustrating. We have the compliance costs of a doctor with the wages of a mechanic. What costs do the guys who work on our cars have? A WOF is only good for the day it is written, people die in cars daily.

To explain our costs, perhaps Plumbing World can do a national advert telling every one how cheap their guys can do it......perhaps we could ask Peter Jackson to use his influence to get this ad up and running.......

Man I am so over this.......Corruption, incompetence and now this crap.....

Please can someone let me know why we need this again. Things are getting worse not better, every day.
You can't choose who you are.....but you are the sum of your choices.......

Offline robbo

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2013, 10:29:53 AM »
hi guys, Badger (We have the compliance costs of a doctor with the wages of a mechanic. What costs do the guys who work on our cars have?)my mechanic charges $75+gst, he is a mobile mechanic who comes to you and works at your place, no training for points for his job, and as you say lots of health and safety problems there(500 plus people dying every year on the roads),cheers

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2013, 10:45:24 AM »
Says it all Robbo mate....a WOF lasts as long as the day it is written......imagine a guy gets his breaks done......don't get them looked at for 6 years and then the breaks fail......is it the mechanics fault??? would they f**** that guys life over?

I was held accountable for a job that was 6 years old (as far as I know not maintained), that was proven to be altered (not by me) and then the Board withheld photos and evidence and that proved what I had said for the previous 2 years since the explosion (and much much more)........you are dreaming if you think this system will not bite you firmly in the arse......signing everything off will open you up to even more accountability......much more.....

Apparently I am meant to get over this, dust myself off and get on with my life......I got no money, my family live in a run down home and my business re-launch is struggling....perhaps the customers are believing all the lies that the Board sent to them....that prejudiced all the sites that they laid charges at, with a letter that said I was capable of illegality.




So it appears that, from what I have seen, the public are as ill informed as us.....if not totally ignorant of it.

Think on this....If they did a TV campaign and told everyone all at once about all this hidden cost and with no public register held by the powers that be.....well it is reasonable to think a bit of a public backlash could be possible, if not inevitable.

But if they break it to the public piece meal, one by one, by us telling them and dealing with the public's backlash customer by customer.......it will pass into "just how it is"...without so much as a murmur.

Not forgetting the gasfitter that won't/can't tell them about all this....because they either don't know or don't want the customer to know (so he can undercut the guy who is trying to do the right thing and follow the new protocol).

Who's up for telling the public about it all, all at once....I got $500 toward a $3000 national advert.....

If we play on their pitch, with their ref and their rule book (which only applies to us apparently).....what do you think will happen what has happened?

Lets take a leaf out of Plumbing Worlds book and go national and as public as poss......it is an election year coming up......

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2013, 10:49:16 AM »
.......and before any smart arse says you got no money but got money for an ad....I am living off the equity in my house....I have gone from 100% mortgage free to a 60% mortgage....when I lose the house and my family are on the street then it will get very messy....

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #95 on: July 17, 2013, 01:39:07 PM »
Now the IANZ has these concerns about Canterbury County Council..... Perhaps we could get IANZ to have a look at the new gas "safety" system......link for article below, comments and advise in red if they were to take the latest gas cert system direction.....to fix their wood fire consents problem......why is it of concern if a council behaves this way......but we are being told to behave this way.......

 This is a bit of humour, it is not how I think it should be.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/8926835/How-did-CCC-consents-go-so-wrong


Reviews of CCC consents unit 2009-2013


IANZ June 2013
◦ Still concerns about solid fuel heater consent process. What's the difference in safety concerns between wood and gas, surely gas is more volatile?

◦No evidence of compliance with public information requirements. Its ok we can print our own off, actually anyone can, and keep it in their house.

◦No evidence of compliance with acceptance, vetting and lodgement of applications. You wanna see the gas system, we are to keep it all under the mattress for 7 years

◦Continuing doubts that consents granted comply with Building Act/Code. We'll find out after an incident

◦Not enough resources to process and issue consents in statutory timeframes. Just take illegally 2 million dollars and retrospectively make it legal later

◦No evidence of addressing old consents. lol

◦Unclear whether steps taken to ensure record of past inspections available on site. Just don't inspect them.... s'easy

◦Unclear whether proposed system for recording inspections outcomes electronically been actioned. Just stop using the electronic cert system, cos you have f****ed it up

◦No evidence concerns over provision of Code of Compliance certificates addressed. What evidence? just get someone elses details off the Board website use all their information and print off all the forms, with a water mark to make it look kosher

◦New system of chasing up old consents not shown to be working. Just don't have one

◦No competency assessments provided for verification. get a supplier to do a course on gutters and get free advertising....CPD

◦Staff still working outside of assessed competence. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, OH YES......






I find this quite confusing these are reasons of concern for a council's behaviour.....but we are being forced to do this.....is it just me or is this crazy?

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2013, 05:24:50 PM »
And these too are concerns for IANZ....just compare to the new system that we are to do.....


IANZ Sep 2012
◦Solid fuel heater process flawed and inspections not done.
◦Receipt documentation inadequate.
◦Delays of up to four days in allocating application to consents officer.
◦Work allocated to staff for whom no formal skills assessment recorded.
◦Wrong forms used.
◦Technical decisions inconsistent and unsatisfactory.
◦Statistics for application processing time inaccurate.
◦No reliable measurement of 20 day time limit.
◦Consents granted where scope of works unclear.
◦Decisions about compliance not well recorded.
◦Record of past inspections not available to inspector on site.
◦Competency assessments overdue.
◦Differing technical interpretations between teams.
◦Roles changed so often, unclear new roles understood.

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #97 on: July 17, 2013, 05:30:23 PM »
Now don't forget these consents should be installed by Tradesman, usually plumbers or LBP......

So how do we get lumbered with this latest load of crap......IF THESE ARE CONCERNS FOR A WOOD BURNER.....WHY DOESN'T IT APPLY TO GAS....BLOODY GAS FOR CHRISTS SAKE.


Offline foggy

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #98 on: July 17, 2013, 09:49:30 PM »
Spoke to three gas fitters today, two work for companies and one self employed. Not one of them new about what certs need to be issued for what type of installation/maintenance work.
This really is gonna turn into a pile of shite where if you do it all correctly you'll be priced out of the market.
You would think that some kind of ad campaign is required so the public are aware of the changes and costs involved.

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #99 on: July 18, 2013, 08:42:23 AM »
Mate, there's no problem....until there is a problem.....

Nothing gets found out until someone complains or gets hurt....and if your in the clique you'll be fine, if you ain't.... your railroaded

Where's the protection for the public in all this?

Remember guys...ignorance of a law..... is no protection from the law.

I bet all the mates and cronies of the people bringing all this in know all about it.......hmmm funny that.

Offline Badger

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2013, 03:24:11 PM »
FYI guys.....comments?

This information bulletin is intended to be read by licensed certifying gasfitters. It is guidance only and is not a substitute for a full knowledge of the Gas (Safety & Measurement) regulations 2010 (the regulations).

 

How has gasfitting certification changed?

 

Before 1 July 2013, gasfitting certification had to include a number of things. You had to describe what work had been carried out and you had to make a statement that the gasfitting work you carried out or supervised was compliant with the regulations.

 

Under the new Certificate of Compliance (CoC) requirements you must complete a statement that you are satisfied the work carried out is lawful, safe and is accurately described.

 

Under the old system, the certificate also included a statement from you that the gas installation was safe to connect and that the gasfitting you carried out did not make the other parts of the installation unsafe.

 

With the new Gas Safety Certificate (GSC), you are making a statement that you are satisfied that the connected gas installation (or part installation) is safe to use and that any work you have completed or supervised does not adversely affect the other parts of the installation.

 

Does a GSC need to be issued?

 

All gasfitting must have a GSC.

 

A GSC must be issued whether or not the gas supply was disconnected. Although regulation 52B talks about the person doing the connection must issue the GSC, regulation 52B(4) goes on to read that where the gas supply was not actually disconnected, the regulation should be read as though the person completing the work should issue the GSC.

 

All high risk and general work must also have a CoC (and is optional for low risk).

 

High risk work must be registered on the Energy Safety high risk database. The database is simply a register of some of the details of high-risk certification carried out. It is not the certification itself.

 

How do I determine the risk type?

 

Practitioners need to work through regulation 5A in order to determine which risk category their gasfitting  work covers.

 

The regulation first defines what low risk work is. For instance, maintenance of a gas appliance is low risk work if it comprises gasfitting. For example, fitting new parts would be gasfitting, blowing out lint is not.

 

If what you are doing is not low-risk then you look at the high-risk list. The high-risk list includes alterations or additions to existing installations. New installations are not considered to be high-risk unless they are one of the eleven other types of high-risk work listed. 

 

These eleven variations include such things as work on caravans with sleeping quarters (‘specified’ caravans); they also include work on a building of three storeys with three dwellings; and repairs after an accident. 

 

Note that low-risk “trumps” high-risk. Maintenance in a caravan or a three storey building is low-risk.

 

If the work is not low or high-risk then it is general gasfitting.

 

What do I do if the installation I am certifying is unsafe?

 

The first thing to note is there is a significant difference between something that is non-compliant with the installation code and something that is unsafe.  A non-compliant situation is not necessarily unsafe. The regulations list situations that are deemed to be unsafe. See regulations 11 to 14.

 

There is an existing obligation to advise the occupant and owner and then Energy Safety if you come across a situation that is immediately dangerous. Immediately dangerous is a situation where an unsafe condition could immediately present a hazard to life or property.

 

The new regulations also state there where you are proposing to issue a GSC and you are not satisfied that the connected gas installation is safe to use or you are not satisfied that the work you have completed does not adversely affect the other parts of the installation then you must disconnect the installation (or part installation) you are certifying.

 

This does not prevent you or another person fixing the fault before reconnecting but you may need to seek permission from the owner before continuing.

 

Can we use alternative standards to gain compliance?

 

The regulatory regime for gas installations has for some time allowed alternatives to the means of compliance provided in the installation standard, provided essential safety can be demonstrated to be met. 

 

The recent amendments to the regulations that came into effect on 1 July 2013 do not change that.  In fact, the amended regulations provide a formalised means for recognising alternatives through Certified Designs as specified in regulation 43. 


 

The relevant regulations are 9, 11 – 13, 43 and 44.


 

Again alternatives can be used, but....and this is where I have a problem with all this.....its all down to our interpretation of the regs, what we believe to be safe or not.....but its isn't until you get to a court room or a hearing that you can get an opinion or direction. Remember what happened to me when I used an alternative source of information.....which I could later prove performance by means of a British Standard to be right.......



How much are you going to build in to your rates to cover these lawyers fees now?

The guy I have been dealing with seems helpful and friendly.....I find it interesting that the removal of lint is not gasfitting......but is removing a burner to clean properly and then replacing ...is that gasfitting?

Offline NZMoose

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Re: Gas Fitting Certification
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2013, 07:17:00 PM »
Hi All,

A word of further caution among your discussion.

Please be VERY WARY of advice from ESS; they are NOT the judge, jury and executioners in all this mess.  Their role in this change is ONLY to maintain the new High Risk database in addition to their pre-1 July duties.  They have no legal obligation to provide correct or binding information other than these roles.

Getting something contradictory to the Regulations from ESS, even in writing, will not protect you in the event of the Board pursuing prosecution.

If you have questions about the new Regulatory requirements, I would strongly advise you to contact the Board.  They have generally been quite helpful to me in regards to the changes.

Thanks,


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