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Author Topic: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2  (Read 4641 times)

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Offline Plasto

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 04:24:04 PM »
Its relevant to my case Robbo, if 300mm is even ok now according to Aussie standards AND British Standards.....and the only charge on me is for 540mm.....its a bit frustrating for me, that's all mate

The Info in the presentation pertains to Part 2 of 5601 which covers the 'mobile market'  the clearances in part 1 of 5601 2013 which covers general installations are detailed in 6.9.3 and refer to figure 6.2  specifically details j and n.

300 mm horizontally is ok if the appliance is fan assisted and under 200Mj/hr input rate. 

The standard is cheaper in AU as more folk buy it there than here in NZ.  Simple economics 101. Such is life.. However were better at Rugby...

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 09:08:28 PM »
Frustrating as it is Badger, charges are relevant to the regulation and legislation at the time of the infringement, not retrospectively. 
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2015, 06:41:49 AM »
Ok......so, what was relevant at the time of the hearing.... is the laws of physics, the British standard and the fumes actually behaving how I said it would at the hearing, before being shut down by the investigators mate who was chairing the hearing, just as we were questioning the investigator about him enforcing a non mandatory part 2 of the regs, with the fumes (according to the owner of 6 years) not entering the building and so complying with the mandatory part one of the regs.

This non entry is now proven, yet again, by the change in regs....because the laws of reality and physics are constant, the gas is propelled away from the building at force, then hot air rises....... did then as it does today.

The Board based my one last charge out of 44.... on one mans conflicted opinion, for him to blame the true culprit, my old boss....was to blame himself.....because it was the investigator who granted the true culprit a full license with no formal apprenticship....

Its a tad more than frustrating mate.
You can't choose who you are.....but you are the sum of your choices.......

Offline robbo

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 08:36:38 AM »
hi guys, ( legislation at the time of the infringement, not retrospectively) funny that only when it suits them, bar-stewards,cheers

Offline Plasto

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 09:30:31 AM »
Hi,

The Clearances in 5261:2003 the old standard actually haven't changed  for 'n' which is clearances vertically below and openable window when you look in the new standard AS/NZS 5601.1:2013

The Clearances in 5261 for 'j' horizontal basically gave 300mm clearance for fan forced  upto 150 mj/hr.  Over that and upto 200 mj/hr the horizontal clearance was 500mm. This is different to 5601.1 as for fan forced 300mm is the clearance now stated for upto 200 mJ/hr.

From an infringement perspective Colleen is correct. It depends on what was the regulation at the time of the (alleged) infringement. 

I'm not sure what relevance the British Standard has to work undertaken in NZ??

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 06:44:09 PM »
Part one is mandatory....... and part two is a form of compliance, but not mandatory......

I think one of the co-author's of NZ5261 says it best....

Paul and Emma,

Please find below a brief overview of gasfitting in New Zealand.

•   “Gasfitting” is a defined term in the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Act 2006

•   In order to do gasfitting you have to be licensed by the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board

•   Gas work (gasfitting) must comply with the Gas Regulations and be certified by the gasfitter as complying with NZS 5261: 2003, part 1 which is the Performance based design and installation criteria

•   Part 2 of NZS 5261 gives one way of complying with Part 1, but other ways of complying with part 1 can be used. Relevant Australian or British standards may be used if the gasfitter can demonstrate compliance with NZS 5261, Part1

As I understand it this differs from the UK where home owners are able to do their own gas work.

Other sources of information can be obtained from the Energy Safety Service (www.ess.govt.nz) and the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board (www.pgdb.co.nz)

Please telephone if you wish to discuss

Kind regards
Bruce
 
Bruce Klein
Senior Advisor Building Standards


Basically if its ok and quite relevant, not to mention, tried and tested since the year 2000.... for 70 million people, with a much higher use of gas per capita, with similar construction methods and a similar climate and weather....but where people live in greater densities.....then it PROVES that this is an acceptable alternative to a non mandatory part two of NZ5261.

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 06:48:21 PM »
And here they are....

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2015, 06:53:29 PM »
And some more....

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2015, 07:33:30 PM »
And here is Stephen Parker (the chair of my kangaroo court)......who is Tony Hammond, the so called "impartial" investigator's colleague for many years, and members of several gas groups together.....closing down my hearing just as we were trying to get clarification on the "fumes actually entering a building"......

Offline Plasto

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2015, 07:57:21 AM »
Ok so you were claiming compliance of an Install in NZ based on using a British Standard in place of the current NZ Standard at the time??

Was there a difference in the clearances permissible in the British Standard when compared to the  NZ standard in place when the work was done???

What appliance was it an Infinity/ Integrity style water heater??

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2015, 08:30:14 PM »
I am claiming, and I know for sure, that the fumes were never entering the building and never did....and the hearing was shut down by a conflicted chair, so that the conflicted chair's mate, the so called "impartial" investigator didn't have to answer the FACT that the fumes were never a problem.

It was a Bosch califont with a fan forced flue, just like a infinity/integrity, please look at the British Standard for measurements.



Offline robbo

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 10:45:21 AM »
Hi guys, badger what about acceptable solutions that we can apply to plumbing regs,cheers

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2015, 11:12:02 AM »
Acceptable solutions apply to gasfitting too mate


Part 2 of NZS 5261 gives one way of complying with Part 1, but other ways of complying with part 1 can be used. Relevant Australian or British standards may be used if the gasfitter can demonstrate compliance with NZS 5261, Part1

So the main part is part one, if Part one is served then its ok.....but at my hearing just as we were questioning the investigator, his mate shut it down.

The thing is the regs aren't worth the paper they are written on if they are applied in a slanted way with a desired outcome to set someone up.

No matter what you write in a book, it doesn't change the laws of physic's.

Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2015, 12:27:13 PM »
If hot flue gases are propelled away from the building, at a considerable force, they will travel horizontally until they loose momentum, they will then, and only then, rise...away from the building and any window on that building....just as I said at the hearing.....I even drew a diagram.

Out of interest Plasto, Answer me this..... how can a mechanically powered "inlet" be nearer to a flue than an opening window? (even allowing for a un-fanned flue, where the fumes would rise just like cigarette smoke, just as I said at my hearing, up the wall, close in, as it lacks the propulsion of the fan forced).....

Table 16 in NZ 5261 even emphasises a spa blower, which is a bit misleading because as far as external fumes are concerned it is a sucker not a blower. They suck at a rate measured in cubic meters per minuet, seven from memory.....from outside to inside.

So this acceptable solution allows for a vacuum type vent positioned above a source of fumes, sucking from outside, to inside...which then places the fumes literally right under the nose of the person in the spa bath....in one of the traditionally smallest rooms in the home, where in all likelihood the room would be full of steam, from the water being heated by the califont outside, you know the same califont that is filling the spa bath.....this could be a balanced flue, like the Bosch water wizard type, with no fan...... the guy who was investigating me helped write this table.


Offline Badger

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Re: As/nzs5601 parts 1 & 2
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2015, 12:33:08 PM »
If part one is achieved it doesn't matter how you achieve it.....because part two is NON mandatory....the only part that has to be done is part one....


It would be a lot easier if they just said.....you do it like this..... and that is it, there is no other way.....none of this non mandatory and acceptable solutions, but they don't.....

I asked why they did this.....the answer was....just in case you get a job where the part two can't be used....so you can use other ways to achieve an outcome for the customer.....which is exactly what I did....





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