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Author Topic: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort  (Read 10705 times)

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Offline Fordy

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Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« on: June 03, 2011, 01:46:39 PM »
Hey Fellow Practitioners  ;D

We don't have a solid fuel heater subsection so I posted this here, any way had a client who applied for a building consent to install a free standing fire (Auckland City Council) the fee structure is as follows:

$290 for self certifying (there is a catch)
$500+ non self certifying

To self certify you MUST be a member of the NZHHA - home heating association - no one else can self certify e.g CP.The $500 plus fee is if a council inspection is required - which it is if a CP installs said fireplace.

The Master Plumbers Association is looking into this as apparently this legislation/deal was recently brought in with no one else aware of it, including them, and Auckland City Council told me it was introduced "earlier this year". No one legislates Home Heating Association apart from their own group whereas plumbers are legislated by Acts of Parliament.

 What do other members think? Personally I feel its not a level playing field - how can the NZHAA get a special deal with the council just because they have a couple of tests for installers to be certified? Yeh I can join the NZHAA for another exorbitant annual fee so I can self certify - but why should I? >:(




Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/ask-plumbers-trade/43/solid-fuel-heater-installation-auckland-rort/659/

Offline robbo

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 03:53:15 PM »
hi guys/fordy, are the self certifyers plumbers who then connect the wetback as well? if this is the case then they seemed to have carved a nice little niche market for themselves,cheers

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 07:14:42 AM »
That is bloody disgusting.  I didn't think the NZHHA was that big an organisation either - but they must have some pretty good  back door knowledge.  It is a sad day when your plumbing qualifications put you on the lower rung after someone who has passed a couple of tests, done no apprenticeship, sat no exams, is not subject to competency based licensing or CPD requirements...

Goes to show - Councils sometimes operate like the PGDB - they work in the fog and don't make any sense.  I too get fed up with having to join a million different groups to get some of these deals - especially in situations like this where unfair advantages are given without a transparent basis.  Wonder how this fits in with the commerce commission? 

Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 08:51:09 AM »
Yeh I know what you mean. I want to try and find out where to go from here? I don't want to let this go as it appears NZHAA has an agenda to do the same as they did in Auckland throughout the whole of NZ once they get enough members. I was told that they tried this in Christchurch but failed as they didn't have enough members in that area.

So if anyone has ideas about who to take this too to get it investigated - let me know

Offline TS

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 09:53:21 AM »
NZHHA installers are not that great. I regularly inspect work done by them and fail it. I don't think any solid fuel heaters should be passed without an inspection. In my own area we charge less than $300 for anyone and that includes an inspection by my Council.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 10:47:54 AM »
Do you mean inspected by council or by a CP?

I think CP's should be able to certify them - I mean you install them as per manufacturers specifications/code requirements - all a council inspector does is check the manufacturers specs and checks the measurements from wall, hearth size, flue fixing etc and seismic restraints. They don't climb into the ceiling to check anything else. How would they know if there is an issue in the ceiling cavity ( i.e a potential fire risk) whereas the CP installing them would - food for thought.


Offline TS

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 01:10:02 PM »
I am a Council inspector and we do climb into the roof space. There are that many different flue types now its easy for them to get it wrong. Some of the worst ones I've seen were done by CPs unfortunately. As clear as the instructions are some still get it wrong. Chuck in other factors such as reducing clearances with screens and low alcoves or structural members getting in the way and I see all sorts of crazy solutions which people think are okay but simply are not.

The DBH were almost going to exempt solid fuel heater installations from needing a building consent. That was on the say so of the likes of the HHA and master plumbers. A number of letters from councils and photos of the work we see stopped this from happening.

Trust me guys there are way too many bad qualified installers for us to risk relaxing the rules.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 02:02:10 PM »
HI TS - you must be the exception - climbing into a roof space  ;D  - the self certifying is kinda getting away from my original post which asked :

1.How can HHA self certify when no one legislates them?
What happens in the event of a fire - is the client still covered by insurance?

2. How can Auckland Council have the different pricing structure - under what legislation/bylaw - the training for a CP is a heck of a lot more than a HHA installer - and what happens, as someone mentioned, if there is a wetback to be installed?


Offline TS

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 03:43:05 PM »
They don't self certify. The Council is the one that issues the CCC not the installer from NZHHA. The Council obviously use their competence and internal training as a means of being "satisfied on reasonable grounds" as per the Building Act 2004. The client is insured if it is issued with a CCC. If it causes a problem then insurance will pay out and if its an installation fault they have the right to sue the Council for signing it off if it happens within 10yrs of the CCC being issued.

Plumbers don't actually get that much training in solid fuel heating and I dare say the NZHHA guys do a lot more installations than most plumbers. Not condoning them just saying it how it is. I think it must be an Auckland thing not getting into a roofspace as most other Councils I've dealt with do.

The different fee structure is done under the Building Act. They advertise them and if no one objects they're adopted. Normally they're advertised with the Council's annual plan. If no one challenges them and they're adopted they cannot be contested no matter how high or wrong they may seem.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 08:06:36 PM »
Quote
They don't self certify. The Council is the one that issues the CCC not the installer from NZHHA.

So, NZHAA installer would send a producer statement to the council similar to what we do on certain types of work such as a pressure test, or waste water treatment plant - which says that we are licensed to install said system and it is installed to council/building code/manufacturers requirements? Then based on that the Code Of Compliance is issued by the council. So why would Auckland City use the words "self certification - by NZHAA" ? I will try and contact our local inspector again and get this clarified.

Quote
Plumbers don't actually get that much training in solid fuel heating
I have to disagree with you on that, it was one our original modules at Tech under Trade Cert Plumbing, and it was involved, couple that with ongoing training on new fireplaces, flues, roof construction, flashing roof penetrations and there is a lot of work done by plumbers. We have done hundreds and hundreds of fireplaces over the years including a lot of offset/two storey flues and never failed an inspection (had a reinspect on one as it was 2mm to close to the wall - ;D

Quote
The different fee structure is done under the Building Act. They advertise them and if no one objects they're adopted.Normally they're advertised with the Council's annual plan.

Interesting - we saw nothing in the annual plan nor any published advertisements relating to this and it seems no one else in the plumbing industry in the greater Auckland area including the Master Plumbers saw it either.


Offline TS

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 09:41:05 PM »
Did you seriously get a copy of the draft annual plan? They're pretty chunky and most people don't bother. If you find it wasn't advertised then you could have them on but I think you'll find they'll be able to prove it was. Do you read the public notices every day or watch the Council website? They're other ways they can slip them past you.

A Council can rely on a producer statement from anyone it chooses. Other non regulated trades which give them are tilers for waterproof membranes, Butynol roof applicators, plasterers etc.

The training you refer to in the days of trade cert was probably only covering single liner flue systems with a boundary shield. I know thats all it was when I did my registration exam in 1998 and there was nothing in the craftsman paper. There's a lot more flue types out there and I help a lot of apprentices out with their study so I'm fairly up with the play re how much they learn now.

Good on you for being up with your training but of the 1000 plus that I've inspected plumbers generally don't have a lot to do with them unless they're a wetback type.

The worst one I ever saw was by a craftsman plumber. It was in a corner situation, was 100mm off one corner, 50mm on the other, pan glue to hold it in place, he threw the firebricks away as he didn't know what they were for, the flue wasn't fixed to the heater spigot(something most councils forget to enforce), the flue was upside down, he had the flue guard on the front directing the heat to the back wall, the double liner system was hard down on the ceiling plate rather than flush with the ceiling and the plate wasn't spaced off. One brace only in the roof, finished the liner at the underside of the roof where he cut the ridgeboard out and fitted the dektite directly to the bare flue which only stuck above the roof by 200mm.


Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 10:24:03 PM »
Why would I get a copy of the annual plan - surely a change such as this should be gazetted somewhere relevant to the affected trades - or even to Master Plumbers - or PGDB or the Federation? :D
That, I would doubt very much - I mean as most councils do - they do what they like with their own agendas - I still want to know about the $290 fee and the self certification by the NZHAA - although you say that its not self certified - well from what we are told it is here in the super city.

I will do some more digging and see what we can find out.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2011, 03:27:20 PM »
OK - after further investigation  :D - i have the facts on building consents for solid fuel fireplace installs in Auckland.

I got most of it from Auckland City Council - Form 19 Application Solid Fuel Appliance - Section 33 or Section 45, Building Act 2004

TS is correct - NZHAA don't self certify so the council have it wrong there - they supply (as I mentioned) a producer statement to the council and the council then issue a CCC (without an inspection)

Quote
If the solid fuel application is being installed by an installation technician of the NZ Home Heating Association, then attach:
• Producer statement application for installation (PS1)
If the solid fuel application is not being installed by an Installation Technician of the NZ Home Heating Association, then the appropriate inspections will be required and fees paid. After installation the owner must complete a Code Compliance Certificate application, using the prescribed form.

and this

Quote
Documentation required on completion of installation
When the appliance has been installed, documentation required by Council is as follows:
• application for code compliance certificate
• either a producer statement-construction from the installation technician (PS3), or proof that the Council undertook inspection(s)
• if a wetback was installed, a producer statement - construction from the plumber (PS3), or proof that the Council undertook inspection(s).

So then we still have the issues of:

- the two different fee structures which suck but looks like we can't do anything about
- have asked the council the difference between a PS1 and PS3 ( no its not playstation)

Waiting for them to call me back - if I owe an apology to TS for anything I said - I am sorry - am kinda p&ssed about the whole thing  :D

Offline TS

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 09:37:54 PM »
Regarding the two fee structures the Council doesn't need to gazette it or specifically notify affected trades. They are only required to publicly notify it. As I said previously most Councils do it as part of their annual plan which gets advertised and therefore meets the requirement to publicly notify. Its the document which outlines their financial position and costings for the next year.

They could do it separately and advertise it more specifically to the people it most affects but why would they? It means another round of consultation, more advisers, more lawyers, more cost and if I was to be sneaky I'd say they might end up with opposition to their proposals, which they can avoid by putting it with other changes. Its easier to hide if its in a large document. The DBH, the PGDB and other large organisations operate the same way unfortunately. You can't challenge them on it because they've complied with the law.

My advice would be to find out where and when they advertised these changes and look out for them next year. Then make a submission. This is how the law works unfortunately :(

Regarding PS3s.

A PS1 is a design statement saying that a design complies with the Building Code.

A PS2 is a peer review statement issued by someone if they've been requested to do a review of someone else's design. Often done on large construction jobs to check that the structural design doesn't have any errors. It will normally be an engineer reviewing another engineers design work. The engineer will certify the other engineers design as complying with the Building Code.

A PS3 is a construction producer statement advising that work haas been done in accordance with the Building Code. Normally issued by tradespeople and can be requested for work not seen by a Council. Its the Councils decision whether to rely on one of them or not. Some Councils ask for testing statements. These are examples of PS3s. If a fault develops the writer of the PS3 is liable.

A PS4 is a construction review statement normally given by an engineer. Its his final word that his design has been followed and that a building complies with his design and the Building Code.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Solid Fuel Heater Installation - Auckland Rort
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2011, 11:09:41 PM »
Yup - thanks I finally got a hold of someone in the council in the know about PS1 and 3's after about an hour of getting the run around. In Auckland you have to be an approved author to submit producer statements - costs $199 for 3 years to be added to their "list" before they will accept a PS from you - plumbers included. Its amazing what you can find out when you get passed around all the various departments at the council. :D

From the various people I spoke today I was told a lot of things from -
"plumbers are not allowed to install solid fuel heaters only NZHAA"
"we wont issue a CCC if a plumber has installed it" to
"plumbers are exempt" to
"you need to submit a PS3"

Auckland Council has gone nuts with this super city thing - no one has any definitive answers on the issue.

I actually read the annual plan for 2010/2011 today and there is nothing in there at all about the fees relating to NZHAA or solid fuel heater installation - and when I asked the powers that be where the information was published - no one could actually answer.

So I have an inspection on Thursday for a solid fuel heater install - and it will be interesting to see what they do require and whether they will issue a CCC.


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